Saruman knows about Frodo?

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Saruman knows about Frodo?

Post by richardbrucebaxter on Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:33 pm

When Saruman is being left alive because he still has information (massive downgrade from the book btw) in RotK extended edition I don't understand why Saruman implies he knows there is a plan going on with a hobbit who is not present before him. How would he know that, and what does he suspect is their purpose? If he knew about the mission to destroy the ring he would have alerted Sauron would he not?

I found this thread, though there is a lot of conflicting ideas and I am inclined to go with the most pessimistic of them (plot hole) unless some one has a better explanation: http://www.lotrplaza.com/archives/index.php?Archive=archive&TID=170743
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Re: Saruman knows about Frodo?

Post by Norc on Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:56 pm

hello Ash Olook. (?) or sha Lokoo (?)... Very Happy

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Re: Saruman knows about Frodo?

Post by Amarië on Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:07 pm

Hehe, I was trying decypher that too. My tengwar skills are rusty at best. Is that a double L, since the "tail" is curly. No.. Li ? The o could be u, since Tolkien kept changing his mind.

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Re: Saruman knows about Frodo?

Post by halfwise on Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:10 pm

Norc wrote:hello Ash Olook. (?) or sha Lokoo (?)... Very Happy

???


But to Richard's question, in the book Saruman had some reason for capturing Pippin and Merry, so he seems to have known about a connection between Hobbits and the Ring. And he would not have alerted Sauron because he wanted the ring for himself. The tragedy of Saruman is his greed led him to being crushed between two sides. Gandalf discussed this at length when he first met Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas in Fangorn, and again as he carried Merry to Minas Tirith. How exactly Saruman go this knowledge is not clear, but Sauron knew it and may have set Saruman the task to intercept any hobbits in order to cast a wider net.

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Re: Saruman knows about Frodo?

Post by Bluebottle on Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:11 pm

I think you got that right Halfwise.

Saruman obviously knew of the connection between the hobbits and the ring. Though I don't think he knew of Frodo specifically.

I always had the impression that he had gathered quite a bit from Gandalf before he himself understood what the ring was.

Oh, and Halfwise. I think it's the Tengwar writing on Richards avatar.

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Re: Saruman knows about Frodo?

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:23 pm

The problem in the film version is its not knowledge about Frodo Gandalf is after.
In the film the great secret plan is that Sauron is going to attack Minas Tirith- unfortunately everyone already knows that as its obvious making Gandalf look a bit of an idiot needing to get the info from Saruman.
The only genuine bit of knowledge film Saruman seems to have is when he says about a darkness festering at the heart of ME that noone else has spotted yet- I have never quite been sure what he is meant to be referring to but I think its Denethor.

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Re: Saruman knows about Frodo?

Post by Tinuviel on Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:03 pm

A part that always confused me was when the mouth of Sauron comes out with the mithril shirt. If Sayron knows of a hobbit carrying the ring and is somehow aware that he caught one, why is he not immediately worried when said hobbit escapes and there is no ring that has been gathered? Does he think Aragorn has it because of the palantir at this point?

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Re: Saruman knows about Frodo?

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:13 pm

In the book he thinks the hobbits in Mordor are spies.
He thinks Aragorn has the Ring mainly thanks to Aragorn challenging Sauron in the palanatir form Isengard (which happens way to late in the films and the significance of him doing so is not emphasised)- making Sauron think Aragorn has the Ring and is overreaching too soon.

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Re: Saruman knows about Frodo?

Post by Ringdrotten on Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:05 pm

Saruman knows that hobbits and the ring are connected already in the first film:



Jump to 1:35 or thereabouts - he says the nine have crossed the river and will kill the one who carries the ring, shuts the doors and asks whether Gandalf thought a hobbit could "contend with the will of Sauron", and Gandalf says "Frodo". So it's not impossible that Saruman (in the film) drew the conclusion that Frodo was the one to carry the ring, at least to Rivendell, and he could've guessed that he would be the one to carry it from there too. It's a bit weak, but possible Wink

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Re: Saruman knows about Frodo?

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:21 pm

He definetly knows about Frodo in the film version- at least in the EE's he does as at the Voice of Saruman section he says something to Gandalf about the path he has set Frodo only only leading to his death.

He has no reason to betray Frodo however as Sauron getting the Ring is not a good result for Saruman who was plotting to set himself up instead.

The only result that s any good for Saruman is if he gets the Ring- which he makes a bid for when he sends the Uruk Hai to kidnap the hobbits- but either Saruman was unaware thee were four hobbits, not two or the Uruk Hai just didnt know (its clear Saruman never told them exactly what they were after, hence Grishnaks limited knowledge and his keenness to find out more).

In the film Gandalf apparently wants Saruman kept alive because 'he was deep in the Enemies council' and knows what is planned. Its just a shame everyone already knows Sauron is building up to attack Gondor and its bloody obvious- it just makes Gandalf seem a it stupid (again)

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Re: Saruman knows about Frodo?

Post by Ringdrotten on Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:24 pm

Not to mention weak - /#()%" staff scene Mad (last time, I promise Nod )

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Re: Saruman knows about Frodo?

Post by Bluebottle on Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:33 pm

Well, it certainly sounds like Boyens and Walsh writing Ringo. Nod 

Making changes for the hell of it with no regard to the inner logic of the story.  Rolling Eyes 

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Re: Saruman knows about Frodo?

Post by halfwise on Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:36 pm

Ringdrotten wrote:Not to mention weak - /#()%" staff scene Mad(last time, I promise Nod)

I think you had the same reaction to the staff breaking scene that I had to the white council scene: why should gandalf be called to account like a schoolboy? makes him look pathetic.

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Re: Saruman knows about Frodo?

Post by Eldorion on Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:35 pm

He knows the same way that

DOS spoilers:
Smaug knew Bilbo had the Ring.
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Re: Saruman knows about Frodo?

Post by bungobaggins on Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:02 pm

How they really know:

How did you know that? Hey, what's that on the ground? Is that the script? Did you read the script, too?

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Re: Saruman knows about Frodo?

Post by Bluebottle on Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:50 pm

So Gandalf actually tells Saruman that Frodo has the ring in the film?

Wow, just wow.  Rolling Eyes 

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Re: Saruman knows about Frodo?

Post by malickfan on Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:59 pm

I gotta say Petty you sure have a great memory for films you claim to dislike intensely. I can't really remember any of TT or ROTK that well, and I'm not that fussed about refreshing my memory at the mo.

Well, someone had to tell Saruman, sure it makes Gandalf look like an idiotic victim of screenwriting 101 but it simplifies the plot and pace a fair amount I guess.


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Re: Saruman knows about Frodo?

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:02 pm

It comes from editing the purist edits Malick- I had to get know every second of those films much better than I wished to!  Mad 

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Re: Saruman knows about Frodo?

Post by Bluebottle on Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:06 pm

Well, at least it was for a good cause then.  Nod 

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Re: Saruman knows about Frodo?

Post by richardbrucebaxter on Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:46 am

Both Sauron and Saruman suspect a halfing ring bearer (which is why they capture Merry and Pippin), but not a plan to be executed by the ring bearer him/herself. The ring bearer was seen as an aid to a greater company that seek to protect it for some purpose. In the movies, Sauron (and presumably Saruman) would of have had their suspicions confirmed of a halfling ring bearer when Frodo is seen by the Nazgul at Osgiliath. The halfling was not detected in Mordor until much later in the narrative (presumed dead), and as in the book this could have been seen as an infiltration attempt (involving an Elf Lord?) This however is what I don't understand;

TTT EE:
Gandalf: "And that we should seek to destroy it has not yet entered their darkest dreams."

ROTK EE:
Saruman: "What do you want Gandalf Grey hame? Let me guess: the key of Orthanc, or perhaps the key of Barad-dûr itself, along with the crowns of the seven kings and the rods of the five wizards? ... Gandalf does not hesitate to sacrifice those closest to him, those he professes to love. Tell me, what words of comfort did you give the halfling before you sent him to his doom?"
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Re: Saruman knows about Frodo?

Post by halfwise on Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:52 am

Saruman isn't necessarily professing correct knowledge of Frodo's mission. Though the problem is that by this point (trying to salvage Saruman after the destruction of Orthanc) Frodo has not yet been captured in Mordor....though I guess it's conceivable with the chronology that he could have been (just barely) and the information was communicated via Palantir.

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Re: Saruman knows about Frodo?

Post by Ringdrotten on Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:03 am

Slightly off-topic, but I felt the need to comment on the speech Saruman gives in the RotK EE: they left out the best line!

"..and have purchased yourself a pair of boots many sizes larger than those that you wear now!"

How could they omit gold like this? Mad

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Re: Saruman knows about Frodo?

Post by halfwise on Tue Jan 07, 2014 2:25 pm

Oh we could have a fine party just going on about great lines omitted or mangled. Not sure I even want to start, it makes me weep.

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Re: Saruman knows about Frodo?

Post by Bluebottle on Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:24 pm

Yeah, it might be easier to do the opposite.  Laughing  Which great Tolkien lines were kept unchanged in the movies?

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Re: Saruman knows about Frodo?

Post by bungobaggins on Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:54 am

Do you think Santa has a palantir?
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