Alternative Doctor Who/Sherlock thread

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Re: Alternative Doctor Who/Sherlock thread

Post by Forest Shepherd on Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:51 am

Well it'd be difficult to want to be any of the Doctor's companions. The show addresses the fact that he is a hugely disruptive element in the lives of those he travels with for any great period of time. They usually develop in good ways because of the time they spend with him, but they don't usually end very well do they?
I mean, Donna is right back where she started basically! Rose is off stuck in an alternate universe with an Almost-Doctor. Amy is... Martha is alright I guess, but arguably not very happy with how she has transitioned from a care-provider to a soldier.
Clara is just weird and her story arc hasn't ended yet. And what happened to Amy again? She... Oh yeah she's stuck in New York forever with Rory. I mean, I know some people that love New York, but that must kind of suck for someone born in England 70 years later than the time she's in.
Or did that change and they got out or something? You know whatever, I'm too tired to think about it much.

Even Sarah Jane has some serious abandonment issues going on with the Doctor. It's not as if he's really good for people, no matter how much they gravitate towards his willy-nilly self.

As regards the female companions of Doctor Who.. well I don't really see an "enormous" difference over the years. But then the companions were never my favourite part of the show so it's not as though I've spent lots of time thinking about them.

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Re: Alternative Doctor Who/Sherlock thread

Post by Amarië on Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:14 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Ha! Nice try, but-

"The Eleventh Hour", "The Time of Angels" - "Flesh and Stone", "The Hungry Earth" - "Cold Blood", "The Lodger" - "The Big Bang"- script editor- Lindsey Alford

"The Impossible Astronaut" - "Day of the Moon", "The Curse of the Black Spot", "The Rebel Flesh" - "The Almost People", "Let's Kill Hitler", "The Girl Who Waited", "The Wedding of River Song"- script editor- Caroline Henry


That have made a point if they had Helen Raynor's name on them.

Not that I have read the other posts inbetween yet. ...

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Re: Alternative Doctor Who/Sherlock thread

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:06 am

I still think the point of that was not that it was Helen Raynor specifically, but that she is a woman, with the implication his stuff was 'better' when he had a woman editing his scripts.

But as he still has women editing his scripts I think they just didnt do their research before going for a cheap dig.

Forest-got to agree, being a companion is wondrous, life changing, eye opening, but usually inevitably also devastating and life ruining.
Summed up rather well in the God Complex by the Doctor himself-

"I stole your childhood and now I've led you by the hand to your death. But the worst thing is I knew. I knew this would happen. This is what always happens...I took you with me because I was vain. Because I wanted to be adored...I'm not a hero. I really am just a madman in a box."

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Re: Alternative Doctor Who/Sherlock thread

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:00 pm

On the subject of Amy I have a point for discussion that I dont think has come up before, and I haven't seen it mentioned elsewhere (although I'm sure someone has thought of it before me somewhere) and the issue for discussion is Amy's dark side. Or at least her very cold ruthless side. But I would go as far as to call it genuinely dark at its most extreme ends.

There are two notable and outstanding examples of it in her run which I will use as examples of it.

The first comes at the end of Amy's Choice. Rory has been killed by Mrs Pogget and Amy decides she would rather die than live without Rory, having realised what is really important to her and how much she loves him.
But she is also nine months pregnant, and its made clear throughout, and in fact from the very first scene that she is due to give birth any time.
Nevertheless she chooses to sacrifice herself, resulting either in waking up in the real world or dying and taking her unborn baby with her. And she doesn't know which it will be.

The second example is in the Wedding of River Song when Amy kills Kovarian.
I can't think of another example off-hand where a companion kills in cold blood someone who is retrained and offering them no direct threat.

And Amy does it for revenge and she knows exactly what she is doing and even shows a modicum of pride in it with the line, "River Song didn't get it all from you, sweetie."

River of course actively enjoys gunning people down.

And in conversation later with River about what Amy has done we are left to consider for ourselves whether Amy feels regret for what she has done or something else, Moffat leaves the question quite literally hanging-

River- How are you doing?

Amy- How do you think?

River- Well I don't know unless you tell me.

Amy- I killed someone. Madame Kovarian. In cold blood.

River- In an aborted time-line in a world that never was.

Amy- Yeah, but I can remember it, so it happened, so I did it. What does that make me now?

I also see this dark side, this sliver of ice in her heart, to be a direct result of the Doctor's intervention with her life, as it is entirely absent from little Amelia.

And I think this side to Amy is one of the things that troubles the Doctor the most about what he did to her by intervening in her life and why when little Amelia does appear again to him, as she does in Let's Kill Hitler via the TARDIS interface, or in The God Complex in Amy's room, the overriding emotions from the Doctor are a sense of guilt and regret.
He even all but apologies to her- "Amelia Pond. Before I got it all wrong. My sweet little Amelia."

Sweet Amelia. As opposed to adult Amy? Who is no longer sweet but is capable of committing murder in the name of revenge?

So how do you read this side to Amy?

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Re: Alternative Doctor Who/Sherlock thread

Post by Mrs Figg on Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:59 pm

It just shows that Moffat doesnt really understand women very well. Women just dont go round Killing their unborn children by ramming themselves into houses. Amy doesnt have a dark side, in the real world she would be locked up and sectioned for suicide/homicide, its not Dark, as Dark has overtones of something romantic and tragic, whereas what Amy does is sick and criminal and is purely there for shock value.
As for River and her shooting gun fetish, well thats just part of the kick ass babe/strong woman acting like a man cliche.
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Re: Alternative Doctor Who/Sherlock thread

Post by Mrs Figg on Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:07 pm

I have just figured out what it is that is missing from my enjoyment of Smiths run as Doctor.
The 'Worlds' suck. I cant remember one of them, they all turn into an amorphous mass. All dark corridors and nightmare hotels. They are really dull places I wouldnt bother going to.
If I was an assistant of a time traveller I would want to go visit Shakespeare or Dickens, see Pompeii, or Madame De Pompy. I would love to visit the worlds we see in Ecclestone and Tennants run, they are fun and dangerous rather than tedious and dangerous.
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Re: Alternative Doctor Who/Sherlock thread

Post by David H on Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:14 pm

I really ought to watch them again before I allow myself an opinion.

I do remember being uncomfortable with that part of Amy's Choice.

The fact that I had forgotten the killing of Kovarian until just now makes me think that it wasn't essential to the narrative. Am I wrong?

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Re: Alternative Doctor Who/Sherlock thread

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:31 pm

As for River and her shooting gun fetish, well thats just part of the kick ass babe/strong woman acting like a man cliche.- Figg

No its because she was raised to be a psychopathic assassin good enough to kill the Doctor.

And I dont think it can be dismissed as just Moffat not getting woman. He delibretly highlights these points in the stories. Its not an accident. He has a point to make about her character an the Doctors effect on it, or at least a question to raise.


'The 'Worlds' suck. I cant remember one of them, they all turn into an amorphous mass. All dark corridors and nightmare hotels. They are really dull places I wouldnt bother going to.
If I was an assistant of a time traveller I would want to go visit Shakespeare or Dickens, see Pompeii, or Madame De Pompy.'- Figg

Can't agree there- since Moffat took over there have been more episodes off earth and those set on earth they travelled all over europe and even to America to shoot on location. Visually its been a feast.

As to off world here's few I'd say look better than anything we saw in any preceding series of Who-



















David- no it was not essential at all- she was tied to a chair and they were all leaving. She was no further threat. It was purely out of revenge for Kovarian taking her child.

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Re: Alternative Doctor Who/Sherlock thread

Post by Mrs Figg on Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:38 pm

RTD showed us there is joy in time travel, Moffat told us there is joy in time travel. It is very different no amount of flashy backdrops and computer generated visuals can substitute it.

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Re: Alternative Doctor Who/Sherlock thread

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:17 pm

I dont think that aspect of the Doctor has changed at all, 11 is often delighted to find himself wherever he is- opening of Beast Below, when they arrive in Venice, seeing the big mining tower in Wales, immersing himself in being Craig's flatmate, going to find out what the oldest carving in the universe says, seeing the Romans in Pandorcia, the fish in fog in the xmas episode, being on a pirate ship, getting all excited over Apalapachia, dinosaurs on a spaceship, showing Clara Akaten and the market and taking her to the singing.
There are loads of examples of 11 being delighted, happy, excited, and having a fun time when he turns up somewhere, and we are shown them, not told about them.

Plus it looks better than ever before!

Even when it is set on earth (this is really jut an excuse to put these up as I think they are very nice and I dont think Who has ever looked better or been shot and directed as well)-






























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Re: Alternative Doctor Who/Sherlock thread

Post by David H on Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:24 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:David- no it was not essential at all- she was tied to a chair and they were all leaving. She was no further threat. It was purely out of revenge for Kovarian taking her child.

So more like a gang-style execution then.

And this is a family entertainment show. And Amy is something of a role model for young people as you've discussed before.

Why do you think the writers would add something like this, if it didn't advance the story?
What purpose does it serve other than shock?

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Re: Alternative Doctor Who/Sherlock thread

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:30 pm

I said it didn't advance the plot, I didn't say it did not advance character.
This is something they have occasionally shown in Amy since the first series, its both a reflection on the Doctors character, he blames himself for her life, its an emotional juxta-posiion with the Amelia she was before the Doctor came along, and it is something in common she has with River, betraying their similarities before we know their family relationship, and then cementing it together in the conversation in Amy's backgarden.

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Re: Alternative Doctor Who/Sherlock thread

Post by David H on Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:18 pm

I'll have to watch it again before I "pass judgement", but it seems at least to fit into the pattern of gratuitous deaths I've noticed. Obviously there are other ways that a writer could convey a growing dark side than by showing an cold-blooded execution. That wasn't even allowed on American TV for many years.

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Re: Alternative Doctor Who/Sherlock thread

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:20 pm

Who has a long history of having undercurrents that are very dark indeed at times.
For a family show it also has an exceptional high death count, many of them in not particularly pleasant ways.

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Re: Alternative Doctor Who/Sherlock thread

Post by Mrs Figg on Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:27 pm

As for River and her shooting gun fetish, well thats just part of the kick ass babe/strong woman acting like a man cliche.- Figg

No its because she was raised to be a psychopathic assassin good enough to kill the Doctor. Petty

erm thats not a reason. A psycho assasin is still trying to act like a man cliche.
Why did it have to be River who killed the Doctor, why her? anyone could have done it, it didnt need to be his wife.


And I dont think it can be dismissed as just Moffat not getting woman. He delibretly highlights these points in the stories. Its not an accident. He has a point to make about her character an the Doctors effect on it, or at least a question to raise.

yeah its not an accident that he ramps up the female characters to the point of being reduced to wise cracking stereotypes on legs.

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Re: Alternative Doctor Who/Sherlock thread

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:45 pm

A psycho assasin is still trying to act like a man cliche. - Figg

Why cant a psycho assassin be a woman?  scratch 

'Why did it have to be River who killed the Doctor, why her? anyone could have done it, it didnt need to be his wife.'

Because it had to be someone he trusted, someone he was weak towards because of his feelings towards them.
It couldn't be Amy or Rory so there is no one else.
She kills him using the one type of warfare he is least prepared to defend against- emotional.
He is the man who is always running to get away from facing his emotions and that's how she gets him in Lets Kill Hitler. With a kiss.

'he ramps up the female characters to the point of being reduced to wise cracking stereotypes on legs.'- Figg

I think that we are still discussing different facets and merits of the female characters shows the opposite.

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Re: Alternative Doctor Who/Sherlock thread

Post by Mrs Figg on Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:43 pm

Why cant a psycho assassin be a woman?  Petty

there can be but, they generally dont kiss people to death, otherwise whats the point of being a psycho killer?

''She kills him using the one type of warfare he is least prepared to defend against- emotional.
He is the man who is always running to get away from facing his emotions and that's how she gets him in Lets Kill Hitler. With a kiss''
Petty

well you cant get more stereotypical than that. Femme Fatale. so lets get this straight, she is a gunned up psycho killer, but she kisses him to death?  Rolling Eyes because we all know women use emotional weapons to hurt people rather than up front honest damage. its rather insulting really.
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Re: Alternative Doctor Who/Sherlock thread

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:43 pm

she is a gunned up psycho killer, but she kisses him to death?- Figg

No, she is a trained killer and she poisons him by getting under his guard because he is off guard thanks to being lulled by his previous with older River.
Its not so much about River in that scene as an insight into the Doctor, and the sort of being he is-

"It was never going to be a gun for you, Doctor. The man of peace. The one who understands every kind of warfare except perhaps the cruellest."

With the cruellest type being emotional betrayal, which of course can be perpetrated by either gender and which despite regularly saving the universe and fighting off Daleks and Cybermen the Doctor is, and always has been, ill equipped to counter.

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Re: Alternative Doctor Who/Sherlock thread

Post by Mrs Figg on Wed Jul 30, 2014 3:09 pm

Thats just nasty then. I just dont get why it has to be River, he is as trusting of her as anyone else, it could be anyone, theres nothing that says it had to be River. She seems far more into him than he is her. Her Whole existence is wrapped up in him whereas he is very wary and only marries her to mollify her, its a very unequal relationship and I think it would have been far more realistic if it had been Amy the one conditioned to kill him as I think he trusts her more than River.

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Re: Alternative Doctor Who/Sherlock thread

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Jul 30, 2014 3:22 pm

Amy is already a Silence trap and the Pandorica trap. It would be too out of character for Rory.

Regards the Doctors actions towards her their relationship is reversed- when he first meets her she knows all about him and when he first meets her he knows all about her.

In Wedding of River Song  she barely knows him at all and he does only marry her as an excuse to tell her what he is up to so she will end that time line.
But once she is in prison for his murder their relationship really begins, with the Doctor visiting her every night and taking her off on adventures and romantic dates. We see this in several of the mini episodes and when we see River in episodes she often refers to these adventures- Jimmy the Fish, Easter Island, taking her to the last of the Frost Fairs for her birthday, hanging out in 50's Hollywood, planet of the Rain Gods, this part  of their relationship potentially lasted for decades (the Doctor in synch with her time line at this point is the older one seen at the start of Impossible Astronaut, so for him this period spanned over a hundred years), and in fact its possible future  versions of him visited her in prison too.

And during this period she is also using the vortex manipulator to regularly visit her parents post events of a God Complex. And that would also cover a span of several years of visits before the events of Angels Take Manhattan occur.

So I dont think its an unequal relationship, they 'date' for a very long time, it only appears unequal when they are out of synch with each other, which is what makes it tragic, especially for River who almost every time she sees him again he knows her less and less.

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Re: Alternative Doctor Who/Sherlock thread

Post by Mrs Figg on Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:41 pm

No matter, I never got the impression that the Doctor feels anything more for her than any of the Others, it just doesnt come across. ok they have some sickly banter but apart from that its all coming from her, and it makes her seem like a desperate time stalker.

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Re: Alternative Doctor Who/Sherlock thread

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:51 pm

There are two episodes in particular for me where I think we see how River and the Doctor interact as a full couple, not as a flirting early couple or estranged time travellers, but as a well established long term relationship couple.
And those are Angels Take Manhatten and the Name of the Doctor.

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Re: Alternative Doctor Who/Sherlock thread

Post by Mrs Figg on Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:10 pm

well if you like that she acts like a scolding auntie, and he acts like a hapless nephew, I suppose it is a kind of relationship. All she does is nag and bitch at him.
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Re: Alternative Doctor Who/Sherlock thread

Post by Mrs Figg on Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:49 pm

so they were all available, and what did we get? Moffat fanfiction thats what. Made up War Doctor? Just One live classic Doctor in the 50th anniversary? nice.

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Re: Alternative Doctor Who/Sherlock thread

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:49 am

Have you seen the 5ish Doctors reboot thats from?

Its a comedy, written by Davidson. Moffat is in it, as is RTD. It was part of the 50th Anniversary programs they made along with Adventures in Space and Time, Night of the Doctor and the 50th itself.

The remaining classic Doctors also got their own 50th episode that was released on the Big Finish license, The Light at the End-


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