The Silmarillion Made Flesh...

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Re: The Silmarillion Made Flesh...

Post by Eldorion on Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:02 am

Looks like Thingol blue himself.
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Re: The Silmarillion Made Flesh...

Post by chris63 on Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:28 am


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Re: The Silmarillion Made Flesh...

Post by malickfan on Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:01 pm


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Re: The Silmarillion Made Flesh...

Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:12 pm

Forest Shepherd wrote:This thread is making me want more of Tolkien's work visualized. It's just so tempting to imagine in your mind the effortless intrigue and beauty possible in the bringing-to-life of Middle-Earth's epic history.
It's basically the same wishful thinking that captured my imagination before the first Hobbit blogs started coming out.  Sad

same here. I am pretty much obsessed, every landscape, every tree I associate with Tolkien, everywhere I go I imagine to myself, theres the party tree or that house has a round window, everywhere is Middle Earth.
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Re: The Silmarillion Made Flesh...

Post by azriel on Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:38 pm

Where I live is under The downs in Sussex, when I go home I view the woods before me & every time I say its Fangorn, my family thought at first I was ready for sectioning, now, they just except it & ignore me  Very Happy 

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Re: The Silmarillion Made Flesh...

Post by Eldorion on Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:01 am


I know that we're gonna see endless Game of Thrones comparisons because that's the current gold standard for fantasy (just like how a decade ago, every potential fantasy movie was being cast in terms of how it could be made like HP or LOTR), but I think the comparison with The Silmarillion is really off-base.  Yes, they both have massive casts of characters, but GOT takes place in a relatively compact timeline and has a fairly conventional conception of story structure, just reeeeeeeally elongated.  It's still a novel.  The Silmarillion isn't, period, and any adaptation that wants to have any chance at success needs to recognize that.  If you want to make a topical analogy, than an anthology show like True Detective would be a better choice.

Also, I think the idea of doing just the three Great Tales is not going to be nearly as satisfying as some people think it would be, because you can't condense the necessary backstory into a prologue and have it make any goddamn sense.  The person behind this tumblr seems to understand that, but then they say that the first hour long episode (lol at the idea of hour long animated episodes, btw) should be nothing but backstory before moving on the actual Beren and Luthien story.  That sounds like a great way to alienate everyone who hasn't read the book.  Trying to cram the War of Wrath onto the end of the Fall of Gondolin makes no sense either.  Fall of Gondolin is a self-contained story.  if you want to go beyond that, make another season out of the Voyages of Earendil (which are essential to any story of the end of the First Age) and the War of Wrath together.
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Re: The Silmarillion Made Flesh...

Post by Music of the Ainur on Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:51 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Nicely put together but to do it justice you would need a script by someone who really understands the work, not just on a dramatic level but on a language level too.

And the script would be bloody hard- theres no way to do the whole book as film, although you could do it as  a series of interconnected tv I think.

I agree Petty, It would be really hard or impossible to do in a cohesive way with a movie format and is better suited to a series, of course it would require someone who does "get it" and would not cheapen it by adding too much crappola.

I personally don't hate the concept of someone adding new elements, as long as the Spirit of the additions are in line and the additions don't diminish too much or replace preexisting dialog which is superior in quality.

And I think that it should include the other books which tell parts of the tale omitted in the Sil. to fill it in and expand the story with actual lore from JRR.

I still long in my heart for someone to do ME justice. These are brilliant and timeless stories that I know would be loved even by people who haven't read the books. Some day they will be done, I just got to believe that someone with the power to do so will choose to be faithful to the work and do them right.

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Re: The Silmarillion Made Flesh...

Post by chris63 on Wed Dec 31, 2014 7:46 pm


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Re: The Silmarillion Made Flesh...

Post by chris63 on Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:47 am


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Re: The Silmarillion Made Flesh...

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:11 am

Nice. I like that. ME cosmology.

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Re: The Silmarillion Made Flesh...

Post by halfwise on Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:06 pm

In this article there's a "Silmarilion Trailer" that someone went to a lot of effort to create, and except for the opening narration, there's not one bit of Tolkien in it past the names. Mad

I also hate the way they pronounce "Iluvatar". They say 'i-luh-VAH-tar'. Does anyone else do that? I always thought it was obviously "i-LOO-vah-tar'.

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Re: The Silmarillion Made Flesh...

Post by Elthir on Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:06 pm

Yes Halfwise, the correct primary stress in Ilúvatar "All father" (not Illuvatar as it is so often spellled) is ilUvatar.
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Re: The Silmarillion Made Flesh...

Post by malickfan on Wed Jan 20, 2016 5:47 pm

This is an interesting, but old thread on another forum (someone posted a link on reddit), someone claiming to be a correspondent of Christopher Tolkien gives some insight into his position on the films:

http://forums.theonering.com/viewtopic.php?p=4029495#p4029495

CT and the Tolkien Estate/family get nothing whatsoever from video games, soundtracks, merchandise, collectibles, action figures, bobbleheads, Burger King cups etc etc etc. The only rights Tolkien pere retained was to the books themselves, and a certain royalty payment on the films' gross profits* (which apparently doesn't count merchandising). Yes, book sales have increased.

-------------------------

To the main point: I am in an awkward position here, because CT has shared with me his opinions of PJ's work (not TH, of course). His criticism is pages and pages long, and not complimentary. At. All. Unfortunately, I simply cannot share any of this material publicly. All I can say in very broad terms is that CT feels that all the themes that to him make the LR important are completely submerged in the movie behind frenetic motion, chases, fights and shrieking choirs (and in one major case, poor casting). But he also has some very cogent things to say about the alteration of characters and the poor rendering of particular scenes stemming from PJ's apparenlty poor understanding of the book; I find HobbitUK's comments a bit amusing because CT actually does know rather a lot about cinema, and his suggestions would have been great improvements on what PJ did.

*Yes, that's a seeming oxymoron- and the reason underlying the lawsuit

I think you'll find that matters have already been arranged to forestall that.

In any event, no studio would ever, ever, ever give an author final cut, and mean it* (look at the way Disney swindled P L Travers on a similar contract provision over Mary Poppins)- it would be honoured as sincerely as 'profit percentage', i.e. not at all. CT in this is *not* being shortsighted- he's being a realist.

Besides, I think you fail to understand the position taken by CT: that no adequate film adaptation of the LR (much less the Silmarillion) could be made, and that's not an issue of battles and monsters vs. technology; it simply doesn't translate its essence to film well at all, or at least not a film which could remotely hope for sufficient boxoffice to cover its costs- and Hollywood very much cares about Cash over Art. No studio is ever going to make a Tolkien movie as a money-losing labour of love.



All you're really arguing, near as I can tell, is that CT should just surrender to the commercial pimping and sell out like Audrey Seuss, on the grounds he and the family can't resist forever. Well, maybe that will in future decades prove to be the case but that does not mean one shouldn't nonetheless "fight the long defeat."


---------------------------
*And that point is, explicitly, CT's opinion

Christopher doesn't care whether book sales increase. He really doesn't. He would rather accept The Silmarillion going out of print than see it kept afloat on the back of movies like PJ's (yes, he said so)

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Re: The Silmarillion Made Flesh...

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Jan 20, 2016 6:05 pm

Its a tragedy PJ's butchering of the books themes has led CT to this state of mind regards the rights. A very big black mark to PJ's name indeed.

Interestingly it was CT who gave the BBC permission for their radio adaptation, this explains something which was long a mystery to me, how they got to include scenes from UT, whose rights have never been made available. CT also approved the scripts- though interestingly some errors do creep in still (they speak of Minas Tirith and Minas Anor as if they are two different cities at one point and because they omit the Bombadil section, like PJ's version there is no answer to how Merry's sword is capable of inflicting a physical wound on a Nazgul.) And though he did have some complaints about the finished product he seems to have been fairly happy with the end result, and of the treatment of the work. It certainly did not set his mind against letting out the rights again as PJ's efforts seem to have done.

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Re: The Silmarillion Made Flesh...

Post by malickfan on Wed Jan 20, 2016 6:15 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Its a tragedy PJ's butchering of the books themes has led CT to this state of mind regards the rights. A very big black mark to PJ's name indeed.


I've always assumed he was against a cinematic adaptation from the start (purely because it would be a conflict of interests-you can't advise on a film you have no creative input in, whilst acting as the chairman of an organisation promoting Tolkien's literary heritage), obviously you and him personally aren't fans of the films, but until Jackson came along and persuaded the studios to take a gamble there wasn't anyone brave/insane enough to take a gamble and adapt the books into a 'proper' film,  the books were already popular enough that there probably wasn't a pressing desire for a feature film, I haven't listened to the radio adaptation yet, but I sometimes have the feeling Jackson wanted to make LOTR more out of desire to push himself as a filmaker and do a big budget fantasy rather than a massive personal connection to the work (not that it's a bad thing per se, some of the best adaptations have been made by people who arent fans of the source material)

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Re: The Silmarillion Made Flesh...

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Jan 20, 2016 7:32 pm

The radio versions are on youtube, its the re-release version which has a new opening monologue and closing piece by Ian Holm as Frodo. Highly recommended. Nod (though I still don't like the opening until it get to the Shire for the same basic reasons I don't like PJ's- gives too much away before the main characters know anything about it, and Tolkiens narrative structure is to only let the reader know stuff the characters they are following know)


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Re: The Silmarillion Made Flesh...

Post by malickfan on Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:01 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:The radio versions are on youtube, its the re-release version which has a new opening monologue and closing piece by Ian Holm as Frodo. Highly recommended.  Nod (though I still don't like the opening until it get to the Shire for the same basic reasons I don't like PJ's- gives too much away before the main characters know anything about it, and Tolkiens narrative structure is to only let the reader know stuff the characters they are following know)


Yeah I knew they were on youtube somewhere, I've listened to a few odds and ends, but can never find the time to listen to the whole thing, I'd like to get hold of it on CD, but I think it's out of print.


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Re: The Silmarillion Made Flesh...

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:07 pm

You can still get the CD box-set, it just aint cheap.

The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings (put together but separate versions not the same people doing both)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hobbit-Collection-Ronald-Tolkien-October/dp/B00CB5QCMM/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1453320194&sr=8-6&keywords=lord+of+the+rings+cd+box+set

£66 though.

Just Lord of the Rings -

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lord-Rings-Fellowship-Towers-Collection/dp/0563528885/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&qid=1453320194&sr=8-11&keywords=lord+of+the+rings+cd+box+set

For the still pricey £47.

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Re: The Silmarillion Made Flesh...

Post by malickfan on Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:16 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:You can still get the CD box-set, it just aint cheap.

The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings (put together but separate versions not the same people doing both)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hobbit-Collection-Ronald-Tolkien-October/dp/B00CB5QCMM/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1453320194&sr=8-6&keywords=lord+of+the+rings+cd+box+set

£66 though.

Just Lord of the Rings -

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lord-Rings-Fellowship-Towers-Collection/dp/0563528885/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&qid=1453320194&sr=8-11&keywords=lord+of+the+rings+cd+box+set

For the still pricey £47.


Bugger that, it it was £30 maybe, I wouldn't normally be inclined to buy 2nd hand CDs anyway, I'll just keep my eye on the amazon marketplace.

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Re: The Silmarillion Made Flesh...

Post by Eldorion on Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:09 pm

malickfan wrote:This is an interesting, but old thread on another forum (someone posted a link on reddit), someone claiming to be a correspondent of Christopher Tolkien gives some insight into his position on the films:

Some interesting thoughts there. I know a few people through Tolkien fandom whose connections to the Tolkien family I know to be genuine. I only know of solicitr by reputation but he seems legit as well as consistent with other things I've heard.

It's fortunate that Tolkien's literary following is strong enough that The Silmarillion can be kept in print without movies. You've gotta feel for fans of books that have been utterly eclipsed by their movies (I know Dave has spoken about the Oz books and this before).
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Re: The Silmarillion Made Flesh...

Post by David H on Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:55 pm

Eldorion wrote: (I know Dave has spoken about the Oz books and this before).

Though not all {{{Ozhobbits Rolling Eyes }}} agree. Razz

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Re: The Silmarillion Made Flesh...

Post by Elthir on Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:51 pm

"Solicitr" is William Cloud Hicklin (referred to in the Foreword to Morgoth's Ring with respect to Tolkien's choice of Jethro for a character in The Notion Club Papers).

I too believe he corresponds with Christopher Tolkien, and his statements regarding CJRT and the films seem in line with (as Eldo is likely referring to) CJRT's own, as well as Carl Hostetter's (CFH). Years ago now Mr. Hostetter revealed that Christopher Tolkien saw film one (now, one out of six) and hated it, and that he (CJRT) had more lengthy commentary, but CFH also would not go into any details publicly.

That noted I would like to read these papers ('cmon WCH [if you ever look in here] I won't tell no one) Wink
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Re: The Silmarillion Made Flesh...

Post by malickfan on Sat Jan 23, 2016 2:56 pm

Elthir wrote:"Solicitr" is William Cloud Hicklin (referred to in the Foreword to Morgoth's Ring with respect to Tolkien's choice of Jethro for a character in The Notion Club Papers).

I too believe he corresponds with Christopher Tolkien, and his statements regarding CJRT and the films seem in line with (as Eldo is likely referring to) CJRT's own, as well as Carl Hostetter's (CFH). Years ago now Mr. Hostetter revealed that Christopher Tolkien saw film one (now, one out of six) and hated it, and that he (CJRT) had more lengthy commentary, but CFH also would not go into any details publicly.

That noted I would like to read these papers ('cmon WCH [if you ever look in here] I won't tell no one) Wink

Thanks for confirming things Elthir, I've read similar before.

Oddly enough I recently re-watched the first 90 minutes(ish) of FOTR and didn't enjoy nearly as much as I used to...

I wasn't doubting the truth of Solictir's posts (i have heard of him vaguely by reputation, and Voronwe The Faifthful aka Douglas Charles Kane author of Arda Reconstructed vouched for him which certainlt seemed legit) but alot of people claim to know more than they do or have a very opinionated stance on this subject, so it's always a little hard to tell who/what is right.

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Re: The Silmarillion Made Flesh...

Post by Elthir on Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:49 pm

"... but alot of people claim to know more than they do"

Maybe... but in their defense claiming to know exactly the amount that they do would be stating the obvious.

Wink
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Re: The Silmarillion Made Flesh...

Post by malickfan on Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:54 pm

Elthir wrote:
"... but alot of people claim to know more than they do"

Maybe... but in their defense claiming to know exactly the amount that they do would be stating the obvious.

Wink

Yes that's true Laughing

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