Question to amercuuurs :D

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Question to amercuuurs :D

Post by Norc on Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:07 pm

what is that swear thing school kids have to say? something about the flag and a god and whatever? what is it called? and what is it? i need it for an assignment in religion..
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Re: Question to amercuuurs :D

Post by Bluebottle on Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:15 pm

Well, I'm not Americuuur. Laughing But the Pledge of allegiance?  Shrugging 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance


Last edited by Bluebottle on Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:33 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Question to amercuuurs :D

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:19 pm

I always assumed it was because America is so big and full of people from everywhere- so best way to make them all think they are one people is to brainwash them as children into idolising a flag USA   Wink 

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Re: Question to amercuuurs :D

Post by Eldorion on Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:25 pm

Yep, the Pledge of Allegiance. When it's recited, there are typically pauses every couple words.

I pledge allegiance
to the Flag
of the United States of America
and to the Republic
for which it stands
one Nation
under God
indivisible
with liberty
and justice for all.

The "under God" part was added to the Pledge during the Cold War, around the same time that "In God We Trust" was made the US motto added to paper currency.
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Re: Question to amercuuurs :D

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:34 pm

How did they manage to slip the God bit in there when your constitution states there has to be a clear separation between Church and State?

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Re: Question to amercuuurs :D

Post by Amarië on Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:41 pm

Eldorion wrote:Yep, the Pledge of Allegiance.  When it's recited, there are typically pauses every couple words.

I pledge allegiance
to the Flag
of the United States of America
and to the Republic
for which it stands
one Nation
under God
indivisible
with liberty
and justice for all.

(...)

Oh Em Gee, I had a serious flash back to the end of a Disney(?) movie I saw as a kid, about a talking cat from space called Jake and a space ship and a diamond collar thingy... Laughing

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Re: Question to amercuuurs :D

Post by Amarië on Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:43 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:How did they manage to slip the God bit in there when your constitution states there has to be a clear separation between Church and State?

Well that is obvious, isn't it? Those who objected were commies.

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Re: Question to amercuuurs :D

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:43 pm

Ah! Of course!!  :facepalm: 

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Re: Question to amercuuurs :D

Post by Norc on Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:43 pm

thanx guys, though i remembered as soon as i asked the question Razz
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Re: Question to amercuuurs :D

Post by bungobaggins on Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:48 pm

Original pledge salute was similar to the "heil Hitler" salute.

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Re: Question to amercuuurs :D

Post by Ringdrotten on Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:55 pm


I pledge allegiance
to the Flag
of the United States of America
and to the Republic
for which it stands
one Nation
under God
indivisible
with liberty
and justice for all.


That's actually quite awesome Very Happy

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Re: Question to amercuuurs :D

Post by halfwise on Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:00 pm

Amarië wrote:
Pettytyrant101 wrote:How did they manage to slip the God bit in there when your constitution states there has to be a clear separation between Church and State?

Well that is obvious, isn't it? Those who objected were commies.


You demonstrate a rather frighteningly deep understanding of America during the Cold War, Amarie (damn, forgot how to make umlauts). You weren't perhaps a spy in your earlier life, were you?  Suspect 

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Re: Question to amercuuurs :D

Post by bungobaggins on Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:00 pm

I remember "leading" our class in the pledge in first grade. Every kid had to do it, and all you had to do was start it out, "I pledge allegiance..." then everyone would join and I would go back to just mumbling it or mouthing the words. Razz

Why the hell do they make kids say the pledge? When I was in elementary school I didn't know what half of those words meant!
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Re: Question to amercuuurs :D

Post by Eldorion on Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:12 pm

bungobaggins wrote:Original pledge salute was similar to the "heil Hitler" salute.

Yep. Then Hitler had to go and ruin it for everyone (just like how the Swastika used to be a common good-luck charm around the turn of the century).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_salute

bungobaggins wrote:I remember "leading" our class in the pledge in first grade. Every kid had to do it, and all you had to do was start it out, "I pledge allegiance..." then everyone would join and I would go back to just mumbling it or mouthing the words. Razz

Why the hell do they make kids say the pledge? When I was in elementary school I didn't know what half of those words meant!

I think it's to encourage kids to be patriotic and civic-minded, which is more or less what Petty said in so many words. Razz I'd imagine it's a kind of weird tradition if you're not raised with it. I have an unusual personal history with the Pledge though since my parents objected to it on a religious basis (they're Quaker and Quakers aren't supposed to take oaths) well before I was of an age where I started to feel uncomfortable with the Pledge on a political level.

And technically, you can't force a child to say the Pledge of Allegiance in school, though this happens anyway.
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Re: Question to amercuuurs :D

Post by Eldorion on Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:13 pm

Norc wrote:thanx guys, though i remembered as soon as i asked the question Razz

No problem. Smile

Ringdrotten wrote:That's actually quite awesome Very Happy

It really doesn't have the same effect just reading it as an ordinary sentence, as it's shown on the Wikipedia page.
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Re: Question to amercuuurs :D

Post by bungobaggins on Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:20 pm

Eldorion wrote:
I think it's to encourage kids to be patriotic and civic-minded, which is more or less what Petty said in so many words. Razz I'd imagine it's a kind of weird tradition if you're not raised with it.  I have an unusual personal history with the Pledge though since my parents objected to it on a religious basis (they're Quaker and Quakers aren't supposed to take oaths) well before I was of an age where I started to feel uncomfortable with the Pledge on a political level.

And technically, you can't force a child to say the Pledge of Allegiance in school, though this happens anyway.

I don't think reciting the pledge helped me become more civic minded. :suspect:I think it's more of an obedience tool/reinforcing repetitive behavior.

Also, I didn't know that Quakers still existed apart from the oatmeal box! Razz Or maybe I'm thinking of the Shakers.

Also also, if I had children, they wouldn't be saying the pledge!  Evil or Very Mad
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Re: Question to amercuuurs :D

Post by Eldorion on Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:25 pm

bungobaggins wrote:I don't think reciting the pledge helped me become more civic minded. :suspect:I think it's more of an obedience tool/reinforcing repetitive behavior.

One could argue there isn't too much of a difference there. Trollface But yeah I think that's definitely an element of it.

Also, I didn't know that Quakers still existed apart from the oatmeal box! Razz Or maybe I'm thinking of the Shakers.

Yeah, you're probably thinking Shakers or Amish. Razz Quakers are just as down with cars, electricity, and modern clothes as everyone else, and very few Quakers still use "plain speech", which is what they call the use of thee and thou.
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Re: Question to amercuuurs :D

Post by halfwise on Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:41 pm

I know several Quakers. I even knew one who got married to a Jew: they had a combo wedding with a rabbi and a Quaker elder or whatever they call them.

They would alternate. First the Rabbi would get up and talk and talk and talk. Then the Quaker would go "Let us contemplate." There would be a long uncomfortable silence, then the Rabbi would get up and start yapping again. This went on about a half dozen times, at which point we all went to dance with the Klezmer band I had picked out for them.

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Re: Question to amercuuurs :D

Post by Amarië on Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:44 pm

halfwise wrote:
Amarië wrote:
Pettytyrant101 wrote:How did they manage to slip the God bit in there when your constitution states there has to be a clear separation between Church and State?

Well that is obvious, isn't it? Those who objected were commies.


You demonstrate a rather frighteningly deep understanding of America during the Cold War, Amarie (damn, forgot how to make umlauts).  You weren't perhaps a spy in your earlier life, were you?  Suspect 

You know too much.  Suspect 

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Re: Question to amercuuurs :D

Post by Eldorion on Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:49 pm

lol! @ Halfy's story
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Re: Question to amercuuurs :D

Post by Tinuviel on Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:29 am

I stopped saying the pledge in highschool, and sometimes intentionally said it wrong. There was this script I read once in elementary school for a speech contest that had a kid deliberately butcher the pledge out of pure ignorance. It was something like
"...of the united shakes of america, and to the rublic four witches stand, one nation, under God (sorry God) invisible, with a little berry and just us fall!"

So I've been saying that for so long I kind of forgot the original pledge. I guess it was me not wanting to support the government, or me just not wanting to pledge my allegiance. I'm patriotic, just not where politics are involved.  USA 

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Re: Question to amercuuurs :D

Post by Eldorion on Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:55 am

Tinuviel wrote:I'm patriotic, just not where politics are involved.  USA 

I'm honestly not entirely sure how that works. Razz I don't think that refusing to say the Pledge of Allegiance is a bad thing, though, and one can certainly support the country or be patriotic in other (and more thoughtful) ways. Thumbs Up

As far as American symbols go, we have better, anyway. The Battle Hymn of the Republic is badass and honestly a little bit terrifying. Imagine starting every school day with children singing this:

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword:
His truth is marching on.

...

In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me.
As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free,
While God is marching on.

Very Happy
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Re: Question to amercuuurs :D

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:32 am

Looking in on America from the outside it sometimes seems like the most religious place in the world if you go on rhetoric, you make Muslim countries look positively secular in how often the word God seems to come into everyday life and politics. Given your constitution that's a bit odd.

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Re: Question to amercuuurs :D

Post by halfwise on Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:43 am

People feel free to express their feelings. So long as politicians don't force their beliefs on anyone they are free to talk all they want. They often cross over into semi-coercive territory, but if the majority of the population is with them they may not be called on it for some time.

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Re: Question to amercuuurs :D

Post by Eldorion on Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:05 am

I don't think it's a coincidence that America is far more religious than many countries with official state religions.  Our various churches, being outside of government control or influence, are free to run as wild and crazy as they want.  American nationalism is also intensely religious, probably in part because Christianity transcended most of the ethnic and national groups represented among immigrants to America.  Some people (mostly progressives and atheists) also suggest that America is more religious than Western European countries because it has much greater social inequality.  It's generally acknowledged that social wealth correlates to a decrease in the prominence of religion, but this argument goes that American wealth is too concentrated to have this affect.  Churches also play a huge role in charity and the social safety net (not to mention civil society in general).

Most of these religious elements are not governmental though, so they don't fall afoul of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment (at least, depending on how you interpret the Establishment Clause).  The Battle Hymn of the Republic doesn't have any official status, though it's sung at both private and governmental events.  Although plenty of people dislike how militaristic the song is and avoid or change it (for the record, the reason why the song is so violent is because it was written during and about the American Civil War).
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