Linguistics

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Re: Linguistics

Post by Elthir on Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:53 pm

Edited... I dropped an r.


Last edited by Elthir on Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Linguistics

Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:25 pm

halfwise wrote:
we wouldn't use 'bath' and 'barth' as examples, I suspect what you are trying to represent we'd write as 'bath' and 'bahth'.

I suspect you are right  study

 its funny how the word 'moron' never changes.  Laughing or do you lot say moroughn? hang on! Petty will say moroon as in 'doon the hill'  scratch 
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Re: Linguistics

Post by halfwise on Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:39 pm

We say "more-on". For some reason we stretch both syllables out.

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Re: Linguistics

Post by David H on Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:43 pm

Southern US speakers might be closer to "mowa-ron", possibly?
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Re: Linguistics

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:11 pm

Everything in Scots is very fast- so no hanging about over vowels, even double ones like doon are actually spoken very quickly.

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Re: Linguistics

Post by Bluebottle on Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:09 pm

So saying something about seeing the moon in June and hearing weeding bells too soon isn't a problem?

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Re: Linguistics

Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:13 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Everything in Scots is very fast- so no hanging about over vowels, even double ones like doon are actually spoken very quickly.

yeah why waste valuable buckie drinking time on idle chattering vowels, or is it because its so windy up there you cant keep your gobs open for too long in case all the wind goes down your tubes? do you clench from both ends when it blows up a gale? hang on hang on....pigs bladders...wind.....clenching... is that how bagpipes got invented? it does make a rather horrible weeeeeee sound.
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Re: Linguistics

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:18 pm

So saying something about seeing the moon in June and hearing weeding bells too soon isn't a problem?
- Blue


In spoken Scots (westcoast) that would be-

'AseenthemooniJuneanthiwiddinbellswirfairgieingitbelterstaesoon'

Try to say it all at once for the full effect.  Nod 

Although I'd be fun to be the Chief of Clan Lachlan just for the address on envelopes-

Chief Lachlan Maclachlan of the Clan Maclachlan, Castle Lachlan, Lachlan, Strathlachlan

Try that one after a few barrels of buckie!


"do you clench from both ends when it blows up a gale?"

You let the pure Scottish fresh air blow in and blow out as it pleases Mrs Figg, from both ends  Nod  (Thats why we dont wear anything under a kilt)

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Re: Linguistics

Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:21 pm

No 

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Re: Linguistics

Post by malickfan on Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:27 pm

Do you know any Scots Gaelic Petty?

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Re: Linguistics

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:34 pm

Its good to get an airing Mrs Figg, and if its pouring with rain and blowing a gale, and you stand just right, you get a free colonic.  Nod


"Do you know any Scots Gaelic Petty?"- Malick

Sadly only a few words Malick (and those mainly swear words gleaned from my Granddad in my youth- he grew up a native speaker) When England made it a punishable offence to speak it after the Jacobite Rebellion of 1745 it died out except in places where the English couldn't get- so the extreme north and many of the islands, where it has remained spoken unbroken through the years.
Its a national tragedy that when I go to the north of Scotland or to the islands I am as much a tourist as any non-Scot when it comes to the language there and even therefore many of the customs.
And as the bulk of the population live in the Central Belt and its all English speaking it had all but died out by the mid 1900's.
Fortunately it survived to more present times and has had a resurgence thanks to the SNP putting back into schools, and my nieces and my friends and neighbours kids learn it at school alongside english now.

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Re: Linguistics

Post by Bluebottle on Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:39 pm

I remember hearing that while a large proportion of the British navy during the 1800s were Scottish or Irish speaking gaelic where outlawed, but Scottish and Irish sailors would still use it to communicate.

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Re: Linguistics

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:42 pm

The English eventually changed the law, sort of, they needed good soldiers and there were few better than the Highlanders- but how do you get people you just fought a generation ago to join your army?- easy if those who join get their language, their kilt and their bagpipes back (all three were illegal).
Its one of the main reasons Scots came to make up the main fighting force of the British Army. Those the Redcoats defeated put on the Redcoat to get their culture back and joined the ones who took it.
And then they performed heroics and made it famous forever in sayings such as 'the thin red line'.

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Re: Linguistics

Post by malickfan on Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:59 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Its good to get an airing Mrs Figg, and if its pouring with rain and blowing a gale, and you stand just right, you get a free colonic.  Nod


"Do you know any Scots Gaelic Petty?"- Malick

Sadly only a few words Malick (and those mainly swear words gleaned from my Granddad in my youth- he grew up a native speaker) When England made it a punishable offence to speak it after the Jacobite Rebellion of 1745 it died out except in places where the English couldn't get- so the extreme north and many of the islands, where it has remained spoken unbroken through the years.
Its a national tragedy that when I go to the north of Scotland or to the islands I am as much a tourist as any non-Scot when it comes to the language there and even therefore many of the customs.
And as the bulk of the population live in the Central Belt and its all English speaking it had all but died out by the mid 1900's.
Fortunately it survived to more present times and has had a resurgence thanks to the SNP putting back into schools, and my nieces and my friends and neighbours kids learn it at school alongside english now.

Thanks for the guilt trip! But it wasn't just you, we did it to the Cornish, Manx and Welsh as well...

That is pretty interesting to hear your Grandfather was a native speaker, I have (seldom seen, admittedly)Welsh relatives who had to learn Welsh at school, they were oddly rather reluctant about it, and my Welsh Great Aunt more or less refuses to speak it, I guess they are proud it survives as part of the culture but as it gets little to no use in day to day life where they live it's kinda a chore to learn I suppose.

It's nice to see Gaelic is getting a resurgence.

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Re: Linguistics

Post by malickfan on Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:01 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:
'the thin red line'.

My favourite film (well, one of them) incidentally...

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Re: Linguistics

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:24 pm

Yeah Im a big fan of it too.

"they were oddly rather reluctant about it, and my Welsh Great Aunt more or less refuses to speak it"

When I was a kid we used to get a clip round the ear for using Scots and not 'proper English' if I used a Scots version of say 'could you', 'cudyi' it was a slap.
Gaelic didn't even come into anyone's thinking, in the Central Belt at that time is was considered a dead language, it just hadn't quite finished twitching yet.

The logic behind my parents generations thinking was entirely practical. Scots was viewed as uncouth, ignorant and unwanted when it came to things like job interviews and getting a loan from your bank.
You rarely heard it spoken on tv.

If you spoke 'properly' you would get on in life.

Again this is fortunately one of those things which has been reversed in the last ten to twenty years. Now poets like Burns are celebrated again and regional Scottish accents are all over Scottish tv and people no longer chastise their children for having a dialect.

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Re: Linguistics

Post by malickfan on Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:38 pm

I guess that makes alot of (sad) sense, uncouth, ignorant and unwanted-that could make a decent title page for Forumshire....

It's the same thing with Northerners-even today you do near alot of 'posh' accents on TV (I'd probably sound posh to you), a Scouser friend I had at college used to be a little embarrased by how strong his accent was (it wasn't it, it just stood out compared to ours), I'm still surprised how many regional accents there are in our rainy little isles, and frankly we need to celebrate them more.

I'm rather tired of seeing posh berks from London being touted as representative of the UK...

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Re: Linguistics

Post by Bluebottle on Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:40 pm

Ah. Are we back to talking about the Morningside accent, Petty?

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Re: Linguistics

Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:52 pm

malickfan wrote:

Thanks for the guilt trip! But it wasn't just you, we did it to the Cornish, Manx and Welsh as well...
.


you'll get used to the guilt trip thing with Petty.  Rolling Eyes 
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Re: Linguistics

Post by malickfan on Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:54 pm

 Smile 

Yeah I've noticed.

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Re: Linguistics

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:24 pm

What happened is what happened- I personally am not concerned with assigning blame this distant from it, but certain things occurred in the past, like the near loss of the language, which still effect the present. And I find that regretful.


"I'm still surprised how many regional accents there are in our rainy little isles, and frankly we need to celebrate them more."- Malick

I agree, and that is pretty much what has happened here, but not sure it has to the same degree down south.
There is no longer a shame about your accent, although all the old Scottish stereotypes and rivalries between ourselves remain true- neds sound nasal and whiney (port Glasgow/Gourock, parts of Glasgow) Glasgow is hash and rough sounding and has that uncouth thing attached, and Morningside Blue, is rich posh folk trying to pretend they are from England, and Highlanders sound like they are calling for cattle at the end of any vowel sound and no one understands a word the bloody islanders say because they talk a foreign language!
We are a land of professional crabbits afterall Very Happy 

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Re: Linguistics

Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:47 pm

the loss of languages are more complicated than just having them banned hundreds of years ago. Some are lost due to people losing interest, and some are lost because of changes in populations because of migration or expansion of cities into rural areas. The Lancashire dialect is only spoken by the old folk now, and many fascinating words are being lost, as the City of Manchester has grown outwards into the old mill towns the accent has changed even since i was a girl. Some languages become extinct due to natural causes and some to neglect. if gaelic becomes extinct it will be due to people not being interested enough in its survival, or just survive in pockets. Welsh is incredibly healthy and robust, and there are many tv channels only Welsh spoken, and there festivals like the Eisteddfod Bard festival or the Gorsedd.

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Re: Linguistics

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:29 pm

Absolutely true Figgs, I quite agree.
You also have to factor the Highland Clearances in which saw tens thousands of native speakers sent overseas.
Then there is the geography which makes the spreading of the language difficult when it has a rival in denser population areas that is the language of commerce.

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Re: Linguistics

Post by halfwise on Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:39 pm

The Yanks got lucky in WWII that the Navajo and Hopi languages hadn't quite died out. Some of the few uncracked codes in military history...

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Re: Linguistics

Post by Bluebottle on Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:29 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:and no one understands a word the bloody islanders say because they talk a  foreign language!

That's probably because they are mostly Fjordlandians. Laughing 

...

Hey.  Suspect 

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