Homosexuality and LotR

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Re: Homosexuality and LotR

Post by Norc on Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:13 pm

oooh.. yes.. yes.. good point Very Happy *googles fanart*

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Re: Homosexuality and LotR

Post by Norc on Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:14 pm

found something elsthough

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Re: Homosexuality and LotR

Post by Ringdrotten on Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:15 pm

lol! 

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Re: Homosexuality and LotR

Post by halfwise on Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:42 pm

lol! 

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Re: Homosexuality and LotR

Post by Norc on Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:45 am

was this thread serious once? like.. did i miss a good gay-debate regarding LOTR?

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Re: Homosexuality and LotR

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:55 am

Yes you did, I was outstanding it in it, I distinctly remember that. Nod drunken 

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Re: Homosexuality and LotR

Post by leelee on Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:07 pm

Where are you getting this from? That is so sad and I KNOW Tolkien and his family would be so disappointed in you.

the very fact that he took communion most every day and the way He interpreted the Bible and acted upon it says that he would find that not only offensive, sorry but true, and ignoble.He was so pure and tried to stay in a state of grace, and by his horror of even pants on women, there is NO way above board for everyone to see, or in his secret person, that he ever wrote anything ascribing to this or believed it to be other than the loving God set forth, that it was an abberation chosen and never was to be from the founding of the world or the beginning of the music til the end. But he would have been kind and loving and left it to God to deal with the persons
So personally, I think it is rubbish and you and others are reading this into it because you cannot imagine the love, loyalty and nobleness of two men who did not fall into the gay category.
I have men gay friends who would scoff and hoot and deny he ever ever intended any such thing.
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Re: Homosexuality and LotR

Post by Eldorion on Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:18 pm

I agree there's a very good chance that Tolkien, given the age in which he lived and his very conservative religious convictions, would have believed that homosexuality is a sin.  I'm not aware that he ever wrote anything on the topic, though he died only a few years after the Stonewall riots, so it's not like LGBT concerns were the same hot-button issue during Tolkien's life that they are today.  I can't imagine he spent a lot of time thinking about it.
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Re: Homosexuality and LotR

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:32 pm

He was a don at Oxford, he would have known gay men, you cant throw a bread roll at Oxford with hitting at least one.

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Re: Homosexuality and LotR

Post by Orwell on Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:14 pm

I believe Tolkien would have viewed Homosexuality like my own father does. Did not understand it but accepted some people were born that way and so tolerated it. I grew up thinking people are all different and if you want to be left alone to be yourself (within reason) then accept that it might be a good idea to allow others to be themselves (within reason). I don't think Tolkien was in any way a hater. His works exhibit a great depth of humanity. He was a fine Catholic exemplar. You know, those Catholics who accepted no one is perfect, that we've all got some Sin in us - whatever you view as Sin - and that God will forgive us all in the end (within reason). Judging people, after all, is God's business, and Tolkien was well aware of that stricture. Who knows? Maybe He (God, that is) will be kinder to Homosexuals - at least they're honest about their sexuality - than He will be to the Judges of this World. Won't the Judges be Judged with close scrutiny and more harshly than the more humble of His sinners? Shrugging 

Btw I don't think Tolkien created any Homosexual characters, either. Not becase the thought disturbs me, but becuase I just don't see where there's any evidence of it ever entering his head, consciously, sub-conciously or unconsciously. The idea just does not cohere to the facts as I know them. You silly billies you. Rolling Eyes 

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Re: Homosexuality and LotR

Post by Sinister71 on Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:02 pm

I agree Orwell I don't think Tolkien did create any "gay" or homosexual characters. I believe that is being forced upon his work by the standards of THIS day and age. Modern times if you will. The sad part is in todays society if you don't include every group they get their panties in a bunch and get upset because they weren't represented. Honestly I'm quite surprised we didn't get a gay dwarf in the film wearing a pink scarf Cheerleader , I guess Ori is close enough Shocked ... I'm really not a fan of catering to groups like the LBGT, being overly PC or any of that stuff... if its appropriate then fine, if not well don't get your panties in a wad. Deal with it. But I firmly believe Tolkien didn't write with sexuality in mind, but I feel it is something placed on his works by modern thinking minds Nod 

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Re: Homosexuality and LotR

Post by Orwell on Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:17 pm

 I think you should write what you want to write, with characters you want to write about. If you repulse people with your ideas, then good, we'll know who you are - and arrest you if your writing is deemed criminal. Nod

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Re: Homosexuality and LotR

Post by halfwise on Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:22 pm

Tolkien damn near didn't write about heterosexuality either. The only proof we have that he thought about sex at all is his kids.

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Re: Homosexuality and LotR

Post by Norc on Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:32 am

i honsetly have never read lotr and thought "gay" but many other have and going by the bakshi movie, i fully understand them. but that said. we don't know anything about what tolkien thought of this matter, as petty said he must've known someone, but then again, who knows. but leelee, i don't think Tolkien was very much inspired by the bible either, yes he is probably a christian, but i don't think christianity ifluenced his writing in any way. the industrial revolution on the other hand and the first world war on the other hand.

also the LOTR books aren't sexual, therefore we cannot really asumpt anything other than that they must've had sex, because there is a lot of children. 

also.. some people think Tolkien was a .. can't remember the name, but got off on trees. lol. i don't think that, but it is an interesting theory anyhow.

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Re: Homosexuality and LotR

Post by Norc on Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:34 am

also, tolkien didn't live in a time where mainstream culture evolved around sex. just saying. he ain't no George R.R. Martin.

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Re: Homosexuality and LotR

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:56 am

I have to disagree with you on religion Norc, LotR' is fundamentally a Catholic work, its inspiration at least in part religious.
The very idea of the ucatastrophe comes from the resurrection story, what Tolkien called the 'the greatest true myth' (Ive always wondered exactly what he meant by that)
But you could say that LotR's creates a mind space in which the reader is free to interpret it from a variety of standpoints of their own choosing, and religion is in that mind space.
Im not sure that sexuality doesnt follow the same rules- its not that its there in the authors intention, but nor is the denial of it there in the author intention, and there is just enough room in some of the relationships that Tolkiens beloved rule of applicability applies, you can read it that way if thats how it seems to you.

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Re: Homosexuality and LotR

Post by Orwell on Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:39 am

halfwise wrote:Tolkien damn near didn't write about heterosexuality either.  The only proof we have that he thought about sex at all is his kids.
I heard he just lay back and thought of England. Three times in fact. Very Happy 

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Re: Homosexuality and LotR

Post by Orwell on Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:42 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I have to disagree with you on religion Norc, LotR' is fundamentally a Catholic work, its inspiration at least in part religious.
The very idea of the ucatastrophe comes from the resurrection story, what Tolkien called the 'the greatest true myth' (Ive always wondered exactly what he meant by that)
But you could say that LotR's creates a mind space in which the reader is free to interpret it from a variety of standpoints of their own choosing, and religion is in that mind space.
Im not sure that sexuality doesnt follow the same rules- its not that its there in the authors intention, but nor is the denial of it there in the author intention, and there is just enough room in some of the relationships that Tolkiens beloved rule of applicability applies, you can read it that way if thats how it seems to you.
Tolkien hated allegory in all it's manifestations. He never let Catholicism weigh down his work any more than he did Myth, Legend and his own life. LotR' is fundamentally a Catholic work = not!

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Re: Homosexuality and LotR

Post by Norc on Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:47 am

yeah.. lotr has been influenced by it perhaps, but not more than celtic and stuff. i don't read it as christian, but then again, i am not very christian.

and lotr has never been sexual.

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Re: Homosexuality and LotR

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:57 am

LotR' is fundamentally a Catholic work = not! - Orwell

The only reason I didnt put that in quotes is Im not 100% of the wording, but its something similar to what Tolkien himself says in Letters.
There is a difference between an author analysing his own work and its motivations after the work is done and one who deliberately sets out to lead the reader to those themes, Tolkien despised the latter but was guilty of the former.

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Re: Homosexuality and LotR

Post by halfwise on Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:04 am

LoTR was written with a Catholic mindset but with the deliberate intention to keep anything overtly Catholic out of it. The main reason for this was Tolkien felt Catholicism was 'modern' and would jerk the reader out of his carefully constructed mythical past into the present. In Letters (perhaps even the same one Petty refers to) he says he went back and removed any religious references from the manuscript for this reason.

Orwell wrote:I heard he just lay back and thought of England. Three times in fact.
Razz 

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Re: Homosexuality and LotR

Post by Norc on Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:13 am

i've heard that he argued with C.S Lewis had to much religion in his stories and that they were too childish, is this right?

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Re: Homosexuality and LotR

Post by halfwise on Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:23 am

Yep, it's right. He had the subtle argument that if you make the Christianity too explicit, the reader has the choice to reject it. He preferred to have the message more deeply buried. In the Lord of the Rings you get the subliminal feeling of higher powers at work, and the rightness of acting nobly even in the face of certain defeat. These feelings undergird Christianity without explicitly referring to it.

He was also horrified that Lewis wrote the Screwtape Letters, a memoir from one of the Devils demons. Tolkien felt strongly that this was studying too deeply the arts of the enemy, just as Saruman did.

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Re: Homosexuality and LotR

Post by Norc on Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:31 am

cool Smile i've always wondered if i was right about that, and i was ^^

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Re: Homosexuality and LotR

Post by Tinuviel on Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:50 pm

There was a really great re-enactment of a discussion between Lewis and Tolkien about myths and the truth behind them, I may have already posted it, but I'll do it again! I wrote a short play based off of his theory, and its actually being performed at my university this week!Cool 

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