Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY

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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY

Post by Tinuviel on Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:46 am

Thumbs Up I see.

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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY

Post by Bluebottle on Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:02 am

They were certainly there all along, but that they got in a position where they had the power to apprehendthe, in reality, ruler of the Seven Kingdoms had as much to do with Cerseis actions as anything else. Although I guess one can only speculate, as the show doesn't spell it out.

I think it's implied that Cersei orchestrated th-e High Sparrows appointment after she imprisoned the last High Septon. She then, pretty out of the blue, decided to allow him to arm his supporters who were already overrunning the city. (Mostly as it's a plot point in the books, I think. And they needed her to make a bad decision. Which was pretty out of character at that point, considering how politicly savvy they had been protraying her as being.) This made the faith a powerful factor in the city, to the degree that they felt in a strong enough position to destroy the property of a friend of the crown (Littlefingers brothel. "It was a place like no other." Rolling Eyes) Cersei and the High Sparrow then either conspired, or acted individualy towards the goal of bringing  down the Tyrells, imprisoning the Queen on as flimsy an argument as lying. Because the birthmark proved.. Well, not that. But they imprisoned her anyway. And I guess she came to trust him. And when she went to visit Margery in her cell, she put herself in thw power of the faith. Whether or not she accepted the Faiths authority to arrest her, she put herself in a position where they could arrest her. And the High Sparrow being a zealot, and more focused on punishing sins than anything else, decided to imprison her. For conspiring to kill her housband the King, for breaking her wedding vows with Lancel. After her imprisonment her uncle, who had refused to accept her authority as "Queen Mother, noting more." is put in charge and does obviosuly not feel the need to free her and restore her to a position of authority. Neihter does anyone else, which is rather strange seeing as she ws doing such a good job of ruling. Nor her son. Who was aged up to have a post coital scene, but is still so young he will lock himself in his room if his mother and wife both are arrested by power crazed religious zealotss.

Not that I'm claiming it makes much sense.

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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY

Post by Mrs Figg on Sun Jun 07, 2015 3:28 pm

surely the King could have freed her, having an army and warriors at his disposal? The Faith don't seem to be as good fighters as the other Harpy lot but are a load of undernourished sackcloth dudes.
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY

Post by halfwise on Sun Jun 07, 2015 3:42 pm

Wouldn't look good for the Crown to be attacking the Faith. In the books the incident was the beginning of Cersei's fall from power, and the other Lannisters didn't really interfere - not just because it would look bad, but because they secretly felt the same way about her. A much more level headed crew took over in her absence.

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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY

Post by Norc on Sun Jun 07, 2015 5:04 pm

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH ARE WE THERE YET OMG !!!! SKLGJNKLBØ, JBJ SC.......

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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY

Post by Bluebottle on Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:06 pm

Spoilers, spoilers, spoilers.. Shocked

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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY

Post by halfwise on Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:11 pm

Oh, I wouldn't really call that a spoiler. What I described was a very brief interlude at the end of the last book, immediately followed by...um...okay I think I'll just leave it there. Wink

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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY

Post by Bluebottle on Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:31 pm

Oh, no, no. I don't think you went beyond the point the show has in any way. Smile I was refering to err.. the spoilers for tonights episode that's appeared online.. and.. nah, I think I'll keep it at that. Other than to say..
Spoiler:
I think the showrunners might have another fan fallout on their hands..

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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY

Post by Eldorion on Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:36 am

So are we supposed to assume that Tyrion, Daario, and Jorah get killed by the Sons of the Harpies once Dany flies off?  Because they totally had no way out and were about to get killed before Drogon showed up, and most of the SoHs were still there. [EDIT: visually this scene was just a mess in general. Also, why did Slavers Bay ever rely on Unsullied as soldiers, when their improvised resistance movement can mow down Unsullied so easily?]

Anyway, I guess it was an okay episode by S5 standards.  Though I tried watching the "Inside the Episode" featurette and turned it off 30 seconds in when Benioff said that "once he makes a decision, Stannis never changes his mind".  Watch your own fucking show, dude.  Changing his mind is the only reason Stannis is even in the North in the first place.*

There were some decent bits but I haven't been able to take the show seriously as a coherent thing for a while now.  More like a sequence of scenes that occasionally acknowledge that each other exist and sometimes go off into their own little worlds without any sort of continuity.

*EDIT: apparently there's a comment later in said video where D&D say that

potential book spoilers:
Martin told them that Shireen is burned in the books.  But whether or not this is true, it would take place in a very different context, and probably wouldn't have been Stannis' decision anyway since the two characters are in different locations and isolated by the snows.


Last edited by Eldorion on Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:20 am; edited 4 times in total
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY

Post by Eldorion on Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:48 am

Forgot about this initially because it was at the very beginning of the episode, but didn't Jon and co. sail to Hardhome in ships? Like this was the focal point of the battle set piece in the episode right before this one? I didn't hallucinate that? So how the absolute FUCK did Jon and the wildlings end up in front of Castle Black, over a hundred miles from the sea, still on the far side of the Wall? In a season full of geographical absurdities I think this is the most blatantly awful one.

The conclusion of the Dorne arc was just as boring and meaningless as the rest of it has been. At least they can still do consistency!
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY

Post by Eldorion on Mon Jun 08, 2015 4:07 am

This is technically from episode eight, but the whole bit about Dany wanting to "break the wheel" is yet another bizarre intrusion of modern democratic ideals into this show.  Dany is a Queen: she's ruling as a Queen in Meereen by right of conquest and she wants to be Queen of Westeros because of her ancestors' right of conquest.  There is nothing democratic whatsoever about her ambitions or her self-image.  But D&D keep throwing in this shit, first with Varys, then with Tyrion, and now straight from Dany herself.  Is this another one of those things that make sense creatively because they want it to happen?

Meanwhile, that was some engaging offscreen drama from Ramsay Bolton and the 20 best men in the North.  I wanna see a show about these guys.  Snow ninja dudes who are able to murder hundreds and cripple an entire army without even a single witness.  I never knew until now that what GOT was really missing was superheroes hiding in plain sight!  Real compelling stuff here.
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY

Post by Bluebottle on Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:36 am

Eldorion wrote:*EDIT: apparently there's a comment later in said video where D&D say that

potential book spoilers:
Martin told them that Shireen is burned in the books.  But whether or not this is true, it would take place in a very different context, and probably wouldn't have been Stannis' decision anyway since the two characters are in different locations and isolated by the snows.

They said that? They actually said that?! Shocked Like, I never bought into people saying they and George had fallen out, despite the deafening silence from George on the show this season, but if they are now blatantly spoiling the books, to defend their own poor writing.. It just lack any semblance of respect for either the author or the work they are adapting.

Either that or they just didn't think. Can't really claim that would be out of character..

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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY

Post by Bluebottle on Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:35 pm

I was going to try to make sense of the Stannis thing, but.. nah. There's no point. Creatively it made sense because they wanted it to happen, and that's all you need to know.  

They made Stannis into the straightforward antagonist and villain of the story, that's their view of the story, their view of the character, not Georges, and couldn't help to tie in his character with actions that doesn't fit his narrative. The way of getting there is contrived and ridiculous. The reasons for doing it are contrived and ridiculous. This story is contrived and ridiculous.

The thing is, I'm not even sure you could see show Stannis going through with this. He is a R'Hlor zealot that burns people for not giving up their Gods. But the only positive thing they established for him was his love for his daughter. And now, in a contrived setting, made up by the showrunners, he burns his only heir to gain a castle? Either way, even if you would say it was in character their writing just made it.. contrived and ridiculous.

Eldorion wrote:Meanwhile, that was some engaging offscreen drama from Ramsay Bolton and the 20 best men in the North.  I wanna see a show about these guys.  Snow ninja dudes who are able to murder hundreds and cripple an entire army without even a single witness.  I never knew until now that what GOT was really missing was superheroes hiding in plain sight!  Real compelling stuff here.

Didn't you know Ramsay was the most important character of the Northern stroyline? That is why changed just about every character around him to suit his story. He had all those point of view chapters, and a girlfriend, and all those heroic moments. Remember? Nah, me neither.. Rolling Eyes

Eldorion wrote:This is technically from episode eight, but the whole bit about Dany wanting to "break the wheel" is yet another bizarre intrusion of modern democratic ideals into this show.  Dany is a Queen: she's ruling as a Queen in Meereen by right of conquest and she wants to be Queen of Westeros because of her ancestors' right of conquest.  There is nothing democratic whatsoever about her ambitions or her self-image.  But D&D keep throwing in this shit, first with Varys, then with Tyrion, and now straight from Dany herself.  Is this another one of those things that make sense creatively because they want it to happen?

I think that ties in with how they read the story. To them Stannis was the antagonist and villain, and as such they saw Dany as the hero. As the hero they imbue her with characteristics they think the hero of their story should have. Modern views on the suffering of the many, fair trial, "democracy", breaking feudalism etc. But in their haste to give her all these modern qualities, that we as modern informed viewers are meant to relate to, they somehow lost the part of her that made her a compelling alternative to the other potential rulers. Her kind heart. The fact that she had spent her childhood on the run with nothing, that she had been sold to her housband for an army, the fact that she understood the suffering of others. And even if you bought into their anachronistic message, their writing still doesn't support it. How is this person who feeds, quite possibly innocent, people to her dragons to make a point meant in any way to be a more compassionate compelling alternative to the other claimants to the throne. Varys faith in her seems completely unfounded going by how they've written her rule in Meereen. (Then again, he also thought Viserys would make a better king than Robert for some reason.)

None of it makes sense. The wheel? What wheel? Only the Targaryans ever ruled the Seven Kingdoms before Roberts rebellion. And that is, as you say, her claim to rule. The reason this whole story is happening. Her effort to return to Westeros to claim her birthright. But I guess that's par for the course at this point.

Mostly it's just poor writing.

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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY

Post by Eldorion on Mon Jun 08, 2015 2:50 pm

I was gonna elaborate on my Dany-related complaints but you already expressed what I wanted to say. They've fit most of the beats of her Meereen arc but have done so in a way that undermines her character. Summarily executing Mossador (right after giving a speech about the importance of justice) and using her dragons to kill slavers (during which the dragons behaved as if they were perfectly trained, despite their imprisonment) make it hard to take anything about Dany's motivations seriously at this point.
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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY

Post by Bluebottle on Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:17 pm

Yeah, it's strange how they have all and soundry tell us how amazing she is. And then have every action of hers be incompetent. Like marrying Hizdar and opening the fighting pits was going to alleviate the tension in the city.. but, oh, wait, the SotH orchstrated a massacre in Daznaks Pit killing Hizdar (going throught the Unsullied like they weren't there..) Leaving it all for nought. Completely unnecessary. And the way they brought the marriage about was so contrived in the first place.

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Re: Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY

Post by Eldorion on Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:21 pm

Saw it said on another forum that D&D have confused foreshadowing with character development. They put the idea of Shireen being burned out there, certainly, but didn't do the legwork to show Stannis reaching the breaking point of making that decision. I would add that the super-contrived way in which he was put in a bad situation (Ramsay's 20 good men) only makes it worse.

This cracked me up though Laughing https://twitter.com/YutaHayakawa/status/607752644153638912

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