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Post by Bluebottle on Sun Oct 12, 2014 7:14 pm

So, in your opinion there are no valid reasons for women to talk about men in fiction? scratch

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Post by Forest Shepherd on Sun Oct 12, 2014 7:15 pm

Well of course not, it's fiction not real life where they talk about nothing else!
Laughing

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Post by Mrs Figg on Sun Oct 12, 2014 7:17 pm

Bluebottle wrote:So, in your opinion there are no valid reasons for women to talk about men in fiction? scratch

:facepalm: ye gods!




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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun Oct 12, 2014 7:18 pm

Showrunners are very influential on the style of story and the tone during their tenure Forest, always have been. They get a lot creative freedom compared to taking over other existing shows. And becuase of this its generally more accurate when talking about phases in the shows past to do so by show runner (or script editor/producer in classic) rather than Doctors.

I would say Moffat however has gone further than most to breaking that trend in that even though 9 changed to 10 the shows tone and style changed very little, if at all as RTD remained showrunner.
It did change drastically between 10 and 11, but Moffat has also changed the tone for every series he has done- 5, 6, 7, and 8 are all more markedly different from one another in tone and style than all of series 1-4 of NuWho I would say.
Whether you think this a good thing or not is another matter of course, but I think its true.



the test is exclusively, 2 female characters talking to each other, if they talk about men they fail the test, if they talk about any other subject they pass the test.- Figg


And no context- in what manner are they discussing the male character? Why? Is it necessary for the plot to be established or character dynamics? How does it compare in the same program to how often two males talk about a female character (for example in the Girl Who Waited the two Amy's talk mainly about Rory, but Rory and the Doctor talk mainly about Amy- if you apply the test equally to male characters as female the show is both sexist against women and men! When in reality the two versions of Amy are both examples of central female characters carrying the episode and driving the narrative).


Last edited by Pettytyrant101 on Sun Oct 12, 2014 7:21 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Post by Mrs Figg on Sun Oct 12, 2014 7:18 pm

Forest Shepherd wrote:Well of course not, it's fiction not real life where they talk about nothing else!
Laughing

Suspect Oi!

mostly we talk about shoes

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Post by Bluebottle on Sun Oct 12, 2014 7:20 pm

Well, in the cases it's justified the result of the test would serve no purpose.. In the cases it's not justified it would..

So, you see, you would get false results, but I agree that it illustrates a genuinely relevant general point.

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Post by Forest Shepherd on Sun Oct 12, 2014 7:24 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:
There is only ONE person in the film for 99.9% of the time. It does not fail any test. It shouldnt be used as an example in the first place. plus when she is talking to herself, it certainly aint about men. She has slightly more pressing worries, ie like being turned into spacejelly. Suspect
Not to nitpick, but it's more like 90% of the time. If you want to see a film with only actor in it, watch All is Lost or something.

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The way is in Boar in Brockhall
Under ale, under bread, under cheese.

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Post by Mrs Figg on Sun Oct 12, 2014 7:31 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:
the test is exclusively, 2 female characters talking to each other, if they talk about men they fail the test, if they talk about any other subject they pass the test.- Figg


And no context- in what manner are they discussing the male character? Why? Is it necessary for the plot to be established or character dynamics? How does it compare in the same program to how often two males talk about a female character (for example in the Girl Who Waited the two Amy's talk mainly about Rory, but Rory and the Doctor talk mainly about Amy- if you apply the test equally to male characters as female the show is both sexist against women and men! When in reality the two versions of Amy are both examples of central female characters carrying the episode and driving the narrative).

it would help if the female characters talked about anything other than a male character, they generally talk about the Doctor or relationships, they rarely talk about how great time travel is. The Doctor and Rory talk about Amy as a 'problem' or how short her skirt is, 12 talks about Claras physical appearance, insults her mainly, Danny and the Doctor discuss who is going to 'protect' (willy waving) her in a paternalistic way while she is standing right in front of them.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun Oct 12, 2014 7:37 pm

Dont remember you complaining about 9 talking about Rose paternalisticly, or 10 talking about her romantically.

And why is Clara talkign to another woman about the Doctor sexist, but Clara and Danny talking about the Doctor isnt? Even if the dialogue was identical?

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Post by Orwell on Sun Oct 12, 2014 9:34 pm

But I always thought women mostly spoke about other women. Shocked

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:34 am

Was something I thought I heard on the first watch through of this episode that I am now certain of on a second watch.
The scene where the Doctor is in his cabin and talking to himself.

Now I am sure I was not the only old Whovian watching who was already  being reminded of the last time the Doctor had to deal with Mummies, in Pyramids of Mars, a 4th Doctor, Tom Baker episode.

If you listen to the exchange the Doctor has with himself, in particular the lines-
"Because you know what this sounds like, don't you?" and
"A mummy that only the victim can see".

He says them just like 4.

It sounds like 12 is having a conversation with his former self. In trying to figure this mummy out he too it thinking back to his last encounter with something similar and in referencing those earlier memories he has fleetingly slipped back into who he used to be.
Its a tiny thing in the episode, but an absolute delight for old fans like me and yet another aspect Capaldi, who was probably doing Tom Baker impersonations since childhood, brings to his portrayal that I just love.

Halfway through Capaldi's debut series and I rather think I might already have a new favourite Doctor!

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Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Oct 13, 2014 2:16 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Dont remember you complaining about 9 talking about Rose paternalisticly, or 10 talking about her romantically.

And why is Clara talkign to another woman about the Doctor sexist, but Clara and Danny talking about the Doctor isnt? Even if the dialogue was identical?

didnt have a problem with 9 or 10 because Rose, Martha and Donna were fully rounded non sexist stereotypes, written by a non sexist showrunner. here to help. Very Happy

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Oct 13, 2014 2:27 pm

Ah, as I always suspected then- personal bias and dislike not actually evidence based at all (I also happen to think it quite insulting to Karen, Alex and Jenna as it assumes they are just stupid puppets who will spout misogynistic lines not only without apparently noticing but will then go on to talk about their characters as 'fully rounded' and strong female role models and promote themselves and the show as such. Maybe the Evil Mr Moffat hypnotises them first!)

Someone applied that silly test to the last episode, it passed which I found particularly delightful as the writer included a sly dig at the test in the dialogue. Very Happy

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Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Oct 13, 2014 2:29 pm

Nod yeah Moffat is evilz, how right you are.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Oct 13, 2014 2:30 pm

Probably sit son a throne of womens skulls.

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Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Oct 13, 2014 2:32 pm

Nod probably. But I think he has his assistant be a human table with a glass top.

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Post by azriel on Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:51 pm

Many moons ago, I (foolishly, vainly) sent in a script Id concocted to RTD, I soon got a letter back asking me to reclaim it back or it would be chucked in the bin Embarassed  
I havent done anything like this since.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Oct 13, 2014 4:16 pm

Well you got better treatment than the young Whovian Peter Capaldi got from the production team-



(Any chance of putting your script up here instead?)

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Post by Bluebottle on Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:01 pm

I think you might have been the victim there of what was pretty much a legal disclaimer, Azriel.

You see, the thing is certain people, though I'm certainly not implying you yourself did, send scripts and ideas they've written to people like Russel T Davies in the hope of them beingt read. If anything similar then appears, in let's say the next series of Doctor Who, they claim the idea has been stolen from them constitute a copyright breach and sue.

So people around people like Russel T Davies are very persistent in making sure stuff like that never gets close to the creative team, except through the regulated channels.

It's still not a nice response, but I hope you didn't take it too much to heart.

I remember hearing a story about exactly this hapening, when JK Rowling was doing a singing tour in the US. People would come up and try to hand her solution for the story they themselves had written. At which point people from her American publishers would unceremoniously grab it and put it unopened and unread in their archive, so they could prove none of the content had ever influenced JK Rowling in her writing.

Now, I'm not saying all these people had bad intentions. But they are all treated that way because some sadly have.  Shrugging

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:05 pm

Some 12/Clara vids that have caught my eye-








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Post by Bluebottle on Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:13 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Was something I thought I heard on the first watch through of this episode that I am now certain of on a second watch.
The scene where the Doctor is in his cabin and talking to himself.

Now I am sure I was not the only old Whovian watching who was already  being reminded of the last time the Doctor had to deal with Mummies, in Pyramids of Mars, a 4th Doctor, Tom Baker episode.

If you listen to the exchange the Doctor has with himself, in particular the lines-
"Because you know what this sounds like, don't you?" and
"A mummy that only the victim can see".

He says them just like 4.

It sounds like 12 is having a conversation with his former self. In trying to figure this mummy out he too it thinking back to his last encounter with something similar and in referencing those earlier memories he has fleetingly slipped back into who he used to be.
Its a tiny thing in the episode, but an absolute delight for old fans like me and yet another aspect Capaldi, who was probably doing Tom Baker impersonations since childhood, brings to his portrayal that I just love.

Halfway through Capaldi's debut series and I rather think I might already have a new favourite Doctor!

I must have missed that. Embarassed A decent reason to rewatch it, I guess. Wink

He's certainly doing a bit of talking to himself these days.

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I guess he would say it's his only chance for intelligent conversation. Very Happy

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:18 pm

Very Happy Yes, he probably would.

Previous incarnations tended to talk to themselves its just you didnt see it that often. 11 said- "Been knocking around on my own for a while. My choice, but I've started talking to myself, all the time. It's giving me an earache."

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Post by Bluebottle on Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:20 pm

Yeah, that's pretty much what I'd be saying too. Laughing

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Post by azriel on Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:41 pm

Poor old Peter Capaldi Laughing he did squirm a bit ! I still like him the best so far, I liked Matt Smith, & David, & all the others, except for Sylvester Mc'coy ( sorry !) Patrick Troughton was fab but Capaldi ? Im glad its in my life time so I can enjoy this Very Happy
{{ dont have my script anymore, moved on }}

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Post by Orwell on Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:28 pm

We (truly) great writers are never appreciated in our own life times, Azzy. Sad


About Capaldi - I keep thinkng I've seen him before, and Petty has nailed it for me. He is ALL of the other Doctors who indidividually pop out every now and then - but never overdone or repeated too much and always with subtlety. Capaldi is a channeller of great skill. I've seen the 1st doctor. I've seen the second. I've seen Pertwee. And now Petty has pointed out Tom. (I've also seen Colin Baker! Shocked ) And sometimes it's what's said, but others are just hints of their personalities, and some traits so to speak. Brilliant! I shall watch closer when I get around to watch the series again after this is finished. Even a romantic hint in this last episode. I detected a subliminal text when the Doctor and Clara were talking things over at one stage - definitely a hint of romance as with the modern Doctors - but subtle. Brilliant! cheers

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