BEORN THE SHAPE SHIFTER

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Post by leelee on Tue Sep 30, 2014 8:45 pm

Every now and then I get confused by Tolkien and then by Peter Jackson in the way they seem to forget what they said before about certain subjects. I realize that JRR wrote so many versions about say Galadriel and such, that he would carry on and not straighten out things. Even Christopher had to conjecture from time to time because it just was not certain which was which in what order.
I am confused about skin changers, shaper shifters. Were they incredibly strong and good fighters or not? I think in a couple of scenes or one Beorn tells why he is the last of his kind. He explains how they were captured and tormented by Sauron as great fun. But then the white creepy orc, who actually looks like a skin head I know, refuses to go into Beorn's house to get the Hobbits and especially Thorin, preferring to wait and capture them on the open road as if he fears Beorn and his abilities.
If that is the case, how was it they were so easy to whittle down before?
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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:23 pm

I think its just Pj thats doing the confusing here leelee. Beorn in the book is not the last of his kind and Azog did not hunt down and torment and kill all his people.
And he goes on to have descendents so its seems more like a weird shapeshifter gene that has got passed done a certain lineage of men to me.
Book Beorn is a sort of survivalist in attitude, he would definitely tell you to get off his land, if you were really lucky, chase you off his land if you were lucky, and if your unlucky and a warg, catch you, kill you, skin you, and hang your pelt up as a warning to others to stay off his land.
Yet he has a sense of humour than can be appealed to, as Gandalf does, and a sense of justice and fairness and with the exception of orcs and wargs he doesnt kill living things. He is also impatient and a bit testy but seems to have much more control in bear form than in the films.

Sadly we get none of the book personality in the film, just a lot of made up exposition to justify why he will be in the battle at the end, as in PJ's ME everyone needs a story arc and a journey and to be part of something bigger, no one is allowed to act independently or have their own ideas and thoughts or to have their character expressed indirectly through their actions and words.

As to how Azog and co could take on all the Beornings and kill them all, yet a fairly sizeable group of them plus wargs are too scared to tackle even one- thats just another PJ inconsistency you are politely meant not to notice among the many, many glaring faults in the scripting. PJ hopes you will instead be so awed by useless spectacle you won't question that its complete rubbish.

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Post by azriel on Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:27 pm

Because Peejers is talking b******s Leelee Mad Everything about that trio gets me angry. ( PJ, Boyens & the other daft bint! ) But, you've got me interested, so, IL go back & read a bit. Surely Beorn in bear form was a thing of terror ? Gandalf seemed quite confident about his presence at night when he & the Dwarves were scuttling about ? Confident in the knowledge that Beorn the bear would easily see off enemies ? sense their presence before the Dwarves did ? capable to look after himself before he changed back ?

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Post by Elthir on Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:32 pm

It's a whittle complicated when you add in the films. I couldn't resist Sofa

I would rather untangle the Galadriel matter... and not that slow talking film Galadriel who keeps posing for a painting or something.
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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:35 pm

I think she is temporally challenged,it PJ's frame rate thing, everyone else has been filmed at 100 frames a second and she is stuck moving at 2.

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Post by azriel on Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:39 pm

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poor thing, Galadriel is one of these, resigned to be a stupid doll that takes your eye out as it flaps up in the air Rolling Eyes

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Post by Elthir on Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:42 pm

Well, you just had to add a picture with a coloured horse in it...

... I'm not fallin' for it this time! That Sky Dancer's hair though... very film-dwarvish!
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Post by azriel on Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:52 pm

Yes Elthir, Id say that horse was of what colour now ?? Mmm ? very Pale grey maybe ? or white ? Its got a grey 'something' on its derriere. Laughing Very Happy

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Post by Forest Shepherd on Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:32 pm

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Post by Ringdrotten on Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:41 pm

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Post by leelee on Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:45 am

Wow and thank you. I need to reread all of it and get it straight in my mind. I saw the movies first, except the Hobbit of course, and so it was hard to remove the one to set in stone the other.
I let Clayton read some of your replies and thoughts and he never stopped laughing, not once. I failed to see the hilarity of some of it and was a little miffed at him. Now he thinks you're all brilliant intellects and of course he will ALWAYS be on your side. That cap was for you Forest.
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Post by Forest Shepherd on Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:20 am

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"'But whereas we have drunk with thee, who seemest to be a man of lineage, and thou hast been blithe with us, we will tell thee that we have seen one riding south along the Greenway, clad in a coat as green as the way, with the leafless tree done on his breast. So nigh to him we were that we heard his cry as he sped along, as ye may hear the lapwing whining, for he said: "POINT AND EDGE, POINT AND EDGE! THE RED WATER AMIDST OF THE HILLS!" In my lifetime such a man hath, to my knowledge, been seen thrice before; and after each sight of him followed evil days and the death of men.'"

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Post by RA on Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:42 am

Jackson dropped the ball.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:04 am

He never succeeded in picking it up in the first place. Mad

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Post by feanor 1999 on Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:45 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I think its just Pj thats doing the confusing here leelee. Beorn in the book is not the last of his kind and Azog did not hunt down and torment and kill all his people.
And he goes on to have descendents so its seems more like a weird shapeshifter gene that has got passed done a certain lineage of men to me.
Book Beorn is a sort of survivalist in attitude, he would definitely tell you to get off his land, if you were really lucky, chase you off his land if you were lucky, and if your unlucky and a warg, catch you, kill you, skin you, and hang your pelt up as a warning to others to stay off his land.
Yet he has a sense of humour than can be appealed to, as Gandalf does, and a sense of justice and fairness and with the exception of orcs and wargs he doesnt kill living things. He is also impatient and a bit testy but seems to have much more control in bear form than in the films.

Sadly we get none of the book personality in the film, just a lot of made up exposition to justify why he will be in the battle at the end, as in PJ's ME everyone needs a story arc and a journey and to be part of something bigger, no one is allowed to act independently or have their own ideas and thoughts or to have their character expressed indirectly through their actions and words.

As to how Azog and co could take on all the Beornings and kill them all, yet a fairly sizeable group of them plus wargs are too scared to tackle even one- thats just another PJ inconsistency you are politely meant not to notice among the many, many glaring faults in the scripting. PJ hopes you will instead be so awed by useless spectacle you won't question that its complete  rubbish.

Hear Hear Jason, Hear Hear !

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Post by Elthir on Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:10 pm

Who is Jason Suspect

Jackson never recognized the ball for what it was... and if he had, and picked it up, he would have cut it open looking for the bounce in any case!

To give Roger Green's comment a new context or meaning... or something pirat
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Post by leelee on Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:11 pm

Is it the fact that Beorn is a shape shifter or Skin Chnger that makes him a threat to the orccs or is the fact of his becoming a bear, it seems he is a grizzly, the reason. Surely an Orc, especially the Uruk kai, or where they not created yet, would not be afraid of such a creature since they ride hideous wargs?  
In the book, and I do not remember, were the skin changers becoming few at that period of time?
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Post by Sinister71 on Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:31 pm

leelee in the book orcs and goblins are pretty much interchangeable beings, there never was any mention of Beorn or them in any way interacting before Beorn going and confirming Gandalf's story. (Other than Beorn not liking the evil beings..)Where as he interrogates an orc (later killing it of course)and skins the warg. but Beorn was a good person hating evil beings. In Tolkien's middle earth I do not believe there ever was any real connection between Beorn and the Goblins/Orcs other than he didn't want any of the evil creatures invading his territory...

Jackson took several liberties with what Tolkien wrote, to the point that he pretty much rewrote whole big sections of the book for his own. IMHO worthless need.

In the book it is never mentioned how many of Beorn's kind there are but it definitely is NOT he is the last of his kind or any such nonsense. All that is really said is that after the BO5A the Beornings came into being.
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Post by bungobaggins on Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:06 pm

The Hobbit: Queer Lodgings wrote:He is a skin-changer. He changes his skin: sometimes he is a huge black bear, sometimes he is a great strong black-haired man with huge arms and a great beard. I cannot tell you much more, though that ought to be enough. Some say that he is a bear descended from the great and ancient bears of the mountains that lived there before the giants came. Others say that he is a man descended from the first men who lived before Smaug or the other dragons came into this part of the world, and before the goblins came into the hills out of the North. I cannot say, though I fancy the last is the true tale. He is not the sort of person to ask questions of.

That's it, no direct connection to the goblins. No "torturing skin-changers," and certainly no Azog! God these movies are a big fucking mess!

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Post by Sinister71 on Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:13 pm

bungobaggins wrote:
The Hobbit: Queer Lodgings wrote:He is a skin-changer. He changes his skin: sometimes he is a huge black bear, sometimes he is a great strong black-haired man with huge arms and a great beard. I cannot tell you much more, though that ought to be enough. Some say that he is a bear descended from the great and ancient bears of the mountains that lived there before the giants came. Others say that he is a man descended from the first men who lived before Smaug or the other dragons came into this part of the world, and before the goblins came into the hills out of the North. I cannot say, though I fancy the last is the true tale. He is not the sort of person to ask questions of.

That's it, no direct connection to the goblins. No "torturing skin-changers," and certainly no Azog! God these movies are a big fucking mess!

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:29 pm

Who is Jason- Elthir

Some sort of second rate imposter I imagine Nod

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Post by Bluebottle on Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:48 pm

bungobaggins wrote:
The Hobbit: Queer Lodgings wrote:I cannot say, though I fancy the last is the true tale. He is not the sort of person to ask questions of.

Very Happy

I rather like Beorn in the books. Not sure what to think of him in the movies..

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Post by Radaghast on Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:04 pm

azriel wrote:Everything about that trio gets me angry. ( PJ, Boyens & the other daft bint! )
Laughing

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Post by Radaghast on Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:10 pm

Sinister71 wrote:leelee in the book orcs and goblins are pretty much interchangeable beings, there never was any mention of Beorn or them in any way interacting before Beorn going and confirming Gandalf's story. (Other than Beorn not liking the evil beings..)Where as he interrogates an orc (later killing it of course)and skins the warg. but Beorn was a good person hating evil beings. In Tolkien's middle earth I do not believe there ever was any real connection between Beorn and the Goblins/Orcs other than he didn't want any of the evil creatures invading his territory...

Jackson took several liberties with what Tolkien wrote, to the point that he pretty much rewrote whole big sections of the book for his own. IMHO worthless need.

In the book it is never mentioned how many of Beorn's kind there are but it definitely is NOT he is the last of his kind or any such nonsense. All that is really said is that after the BO5A the Beornings came into being.
Indeed, his son Grimbeorn is mentioned in TFoTR.

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Post by Radaghast on Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:12 pm

bungobaggins wrote:
The Hobbit: Queer Lodgings wrote:He is a skin-changer. He changes his skin: sometimes he is a huge black bear, sometimes he is a great strong black-haired man with huge arms and a great beard. I cannot tell you much more, though that ought to be enough. Some say that he is a bear descended from the great and ancient bears of the mountains that lived there before the giants came. Others say that he is a man descended from the first men who lived before Smaug or the other dragons came into this part of the world, and before the goblins came into the hills out of the North. I cannot say, though I fancy the last is the true tale. He is not the sort of person to ask questions of.

That's it, no direct connection to the goblins. No "torturing skin-changers," and certainly no Azog! God these movies are a big fucking mess!
You're too kind.

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