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Post by Mrs Figg on Wed Dec 24, 2014 7:44 pm

the more I think about it the more I don't get why they made the men of Laketown fight in Dale, it was probably because the cgi and the real actors was too difficult to mix together, so they had one battle with real people in Dale and a totally cgi battle for the rest that's all the Dwarves including Dain, Elves and Orcs. They probably had about 20 real people tops in the whole battle. that's why it sucks.

Compare that to the charge of the Rohirrim, real men on real horses charging over a real field. and you felt it.
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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Dec 25, 2014 12:06 am

I think you are right about that- good news is I have managed to give the illusion they fight together.
In fact the manner in which the purist version of the battle plays out is quite different, and designed to give clarity.

It now goes-
Elves and Men parley with Thorin and square off.
Dain arrives.
Orcs arrive.
Dain leads defence against orcs, forms shielded ranks.
Thranduil hesitates and doesn't yet act.
Orc and dwarf ranks square up.
Azog (Bolg in edit) gives the order to advance.
Thorin and Co charge from Erebor. Dwarves follow their King into battle.
Bard rallies men in Dale to go join the fight and they go to the battlefield.
Elves join battle. General fighting on battlefield.
Orcs breach Dale.
Bard returns to defend Dale and to find his children.
Bilbo and Gandalf forced to fight in Dale.
Dain and Thorin meet on the battlefield. Thorin tells Dain he is going to take out the orc leader.
Bard finds children. Alfred redeemed by pledging to Bard and to protect the children.
Bard leads charge against orcs in Dale.
Thorin sends Fili and Kili to check the towers.
Gandalf tells Thranduil of more orcs coming which will surround Thorin.
Bilbo offers to go and warn Thorin and leaves to do so.
Kili and then Fili killed by Bolg before Thorin.
Thorin pursues Bolg.
Arrival of the bats to the battle.
Dwalin defends Bilbo.
Dain sounds the retreat to the walls of Erebor.
Thorin finds and begins fight with Bolg on the ice.
Bilbo is knocked out.
Thorin and Bolg fight continued.
Arrival of eagles and Beorn to battlefield.
Death of Thorin and Bolg.
Bilbo awakens. Finds Thorin.

All going planned it should be ready to watch as a xmas day present.


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Post by Bluebottle on Thu Dec 25, 2014 12:17 am

cheers

Really interested to see this now. Very Happy

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Dec 25, 2014 2:51 am

Merry Christmas Forumshire! pub

You're pressie is ready to unwrap. Its in the DOSstandards folder as DOS2.
Do bear in mind when watching its a first rough cut, not to fussy about sound issues at the mo as will need to do them properly with a proper version later. But I have tried to make it a relatively smooth watch. And also remember that you are not watching a stand alone film but the last hour of DOS with the purist edits.
So for the full effect of seeing the story in context you should really watch DOS first then this immediately after. Just over 2 hours of your time.

As always suggestions, ideas, likes and dislikes all welcome.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Dec 26, 2014 8:53 am

No one unwrapped their xmas pressie yet? Mad

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Post by azriel on Fri Dec 26, 2014 1:34 pm

C'mon, how do I get hold of your DOS2 present ? IL give it a look Very Happy
Im amazed you can conjure up a decent story line out of the sheer dross I witnessed ? I know I only watched a 'cam', but, that was well enough for me ! This was without doubt the weakest part of the whole trilogy !!

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Dec 26, 2014 3:10 pm

Well its only a cam again Azriel as its the only source for editing at the moment. Probably the same cam you watched.
Its on the online drive, same folder the first part of DOS is in.

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Post by David H on Fri Dec 26, 2014 4:14 pm

OK I gave it a quick watch last night. It's shaping up nicely!

A couple quick thoughts:

The death of Smaug is so much cleaner without the dangling-bowbreaking stuff. When you eventually go back to DoS you'll want to take another look at how Smaug's bare spot is foreshadowed. Without the thrush there's a bit of a week spot in the narrative. Not sure what you can do about that, if anything.

The battles are making more sense now too, with the emphasis moving back away from spectacle and towards story. It's now possible to actually count the Five Armies of the title as the battle unfolds. Of course it's still a bit rough and could use a little more signposting so that a casual viewer can follow what's going on, but for a person who already knows what to expect it works OK right now. The image and sound quality of course add to the confusion at this stage. It should be a lot better when you get your hands on a clean copy.

Watching the battle distilled down like this, I'm pretty sure the EE's will contain a lot more of the eagles and Beorn. That 5th army is really shortchanged in the theatrical cut, and I can't believe PJ didn't film more. Hopefully you'll get a few more key bits of dialog at the same time to help with the signposting of the battle.

Fili and Kili's deaths are on the right track as far as pacing. I just wish PJ had given you more to work with. Mad

Finally, this seems to be a really convenient size file for me to download. If I can get to wifi it only takes about 15 minutes to download. Much bigger and it stops being practical, especially if I poaching the wifi....

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Dec 26, 2014 6:58 pm

Thanks for the comments Dave.

Regards the foreshadowing of the missing scale- I have reinstated the flashack scene to when Smaug loses the scale. Which I think fixes the problem.
So that now comes in the first half of DOS, with Bilbo's confirming of it coming just before Smaug goes to attack Laketown, and the culminates in Bard seeing it at the start of the last third of the film.

I'd rather have the thrush of course, but in its absence thats all PJ gives which is usable to set it up.

'The battles are making more sense now too'

I am taking credit for this as in order to achieve that I had to completely reorder the battles scenes to create a narrative.
It also has the added bonus that Dain now only calls the retreat towards the battle end, giving the impression he is there longer and through out, and as Thorin is fighting Azog(well Bolg in my edit)  and just before the eagles arrival adding to the sense of tension and climax.

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Post by Mrs Figg on Fri Dec 26, 2014 7:27 pm

there is a Thrush in there somewhere, cant you use that footage, even though the bird doesn't actually talk, at least its there in spirit at least. cant exactly remember when it makes an appearance in BOT5A but I did notice it was there.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:28 pm

Problem there Figg is it would just be an unrelated image of a thrush- it would have no context or way of showing what purpose it was serving in the story.


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Post by Mrs Figg on Sat Dec 27, 2014 3:18 pm

its symbolic

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Jan 01, 2015 5:45 am

I had been making notes for doing a purist comentary- but I thought I may as well bung the notes up as a sort of guide sheet to the changes I made.
Starting with the LotR's films, and Book 1 (same as book, ends at the Ford).

I am sure there are cuts Ive missed too but I think these are al lthe major ones.
Also if a scene isn't here its because its been cut entirely- these are all the scenes in the purist edit and their times.

1. 00.00 – 0034 -  New Line Credits and Lord of the Rings title -taken from opening of RotK.

2. 00.34 – 01.32 - New intro. Music taken from FotR soundtrack. Ring verse voice over is Sir Michael Horden taken from BBC Radio production of Lord of the Rings. Visuals to the Ring verse taken from FotR opening intro sequence.

3. 01.32 -  04.06 - Bilbo writing Concerning Hobbits. Only change to this sequence is the removal of Sam because of the reinstating later of the 17 year gap between these events and the main story.

4. 04.06 – 08.10 - Frodo meets Gandalf. Removed Gandalf setting off the fireworks for the hobbit children as it makes him too twinkly eyed and friendly and not crabbit enough like he is in the book. And because in the book he expressly forbids even Frodo having a single squib, and sends Frodo to guard the cart against firework thieves.

5. 08.10 – 12.26 -  Gandalf arrives at Bag End and meets Bilbo. Conversation in Bag End.  No edits in this scene.

6. 12.26 – 12.57 - Scene overlooking party. Gandalf blows smoke ship. No edits to this scene.

7. 12.57 – 17.21 -  Bilbo's Birthday party. Sequence reordered: all other main hobbits except Frodo cut out. Troll story moved earlier. Shot of Gandalf lighting a firework used to be Gandalf setting off the dragon firework. Cut the false panic and faux action sequence when firework goes off.

8. 16.21 -  2.00 - Gandalf confronts Bilbo in Bag End before he leaves. Cut out the flash of the Eye when Gandalf goes to pick up Ring as it is far too soon with the 17 year gap reinstated. It now transitions with a crossfade from the Ring on the floor to close up of the fire in the grate.

9. 22.00 – 23.29 - Frodo returns to find Bilbo gone and Gandalf waiting. Cut out Gandalf telling Frodo where Bilbo has gone, as in the book Frodo does not know.

10. 23.29 -  24.56 - Gandalf rides to Minas Tirth discovers Isildurs letter. Reinstated 17 year gap by means of on-screen caption- '17 years later'. Used music from RotK soundtrack for Gandalf approach on horse.

11. 24.57 -  26.17 - Green Dragon. First introduction to Merry, Pippin and Sam. Edited out Sam's final line, as book Sam would never consider himself stupid, nor is he.

12. 26.17- 40.00  -  History of the Ring in Bag End. Added highest level of 'red filter' to indicate the presence and will of Sauron- filter removed when Sauron loses Ring and 'explodes' in shock-wave. Intercut conversation with footage from the FotR introduction and from Rivendell, RotK intro and AUJ. Intercuts on dialogue: 'Taken by Isildur from the hand of Sauron himself”- cut to Ring on Sauron's hand during Last Alliance. Edited out the ludicrous bodies flying for miles when hit. Footage used to show Isildur cutting and taking the Ring edited for sound issues to do with removing Galadriel voice over. Continues straight into Elrond taking Isildur into the mountain, taken from Rivendell flashback, and then on into the ambush and Isildur's death. Cut back to Bag End on Ring sinking into river. “....His life force is bound to the Ring and the Ring survived.” Cut to Smeagol and Deagol, footage taken from intro of RotK. Edited in minor ways for brevity. Fight edited to make it shorter, and so that Smeagol escalates the attack to life threatening first and not Deagol, in keeping with the impression given of Smeagol by Gandalf in the book, that he was not very nice to start with before the Ring found him. Cut back to Bag End once Smeagol crawls into cave and says “My Precious.” Cut on “Bilbo found it, in Gollum's cave” to Bilbo finding the Ring, taken from An Unexpected Journey. Edited out the Black Rider entering the Shire as they aren't in the story yet. The reason for including al this here was firstly it follows the book closer and secondly giving the information here in this more linear fashion make sit more pertinent and less forgettable than all shoved together into an intro at the start without context. Removing the intro also allows as an added benefit, the story to begin sooner, with only Concerning Hobbits as the scene setting device, and narratively Concerning Hobbits is a better introduction than the bombastic eye catching history of the Ring.

13. 40.00 – 41.09 - Frodo and Sam leave the Shire. Gandalf leaves for Isengard. Walking montage. No edits.

14.
41.09 -   43.25 - Sams 'furthest I've ever been' scene and wood elves. No edits.

15. 43.25 – 44.27 - Meeting Merry and Pippin in farmer Maggot's fields. Edited out the list of things they had stolen, to make them seem  less like common thieves or vagabonds.

16. 44.27 -  46.42 - Black Rider encounter. Cut out the nearly landing in shit joke. Made the encounter with Rider seem as if Frodo resisting putting on the Ring drove it to leave, not being distracted like a puppy by Merry throwing a bag into a bush. Edited out the insects, as it seemed narratively confusing. And none of the insects looked native to a northern climate.

17. 46.42 -  48.32 - Buckleberry Ferry. Edited out Frodo getting left behind, as him running about between the Riders legs reduces their threat and otherworldliness. Edited to look like they all get to the ferry at the same time, no Frodo chase and huge jump onto the ferry.

18. 48.32 – 53.02  - The Prancing Pony. Edited out hobbits in buy streets, including Pj cameo. Cuts form wide-shot of them entering to the sign of the inn. I felt Bree had been made to feel too hostile and that this scene in the streets only added the impression it was a very grim place full of unpleasant people. Cut Butterman not knowing who Gandalf was. Re-odered some shots. Cut out the half pint/pint gag. Cut out the Ring flying up into the air and landing perfectly on Frodo's finger. Because it looks stupid.

19. 53.02 -   55.38 - Strider talks to Frodo in private. Riders attack Inn. Cut out Harry the Gatekeeper getting squashed by the gate.

20.
55.38 -   58.49 - Walking montage. Breakfast scene. March scene and camp scene. Reordered and edited at various points so it makes ore sense and seems to take longer to travel the distance: leave Bree.  'Where are you taking us/into the wild' section. Second breakfast scene- edited out Pippin looking up for where the apple came from as it makes him look too idiotic. Night camp, Aragorn brings a deer for dinner.  Second day walking, marshes. Second night camp, Aragorn sings of Tinuviel. Third day arrival at Weathertop.

21. 58.49 – 1.02.21 - Weathertop. Cut out Pippin making sausages. Cut from Aragorn leaving to them asleep. This lessens the sense Aragorn is away too long. Frodo now woken by cries of the Nazgul using the footage of him being woken by their cooking but with different background ambient to help with mood. Cut Aragorn setting Riders on fire, he just waves the fire, fights off a few and they leave as they do in the book, their job done. Also itm akes no sense that as soon as they leave we see the Riders on their horses galloping with their robes.

22. 1.02.21 – 1.05.13 – Bilbo's trolls/ Arwen. Cut Arwen meeting Aragorn in the woods because its a bad scene and her reintroduction on a horse seems weird coming after it. Rewrote all the elvish subtitles, using Glrofindel based dialogue from the book- her dialogue is now: (on arrival) Frodo, I am Arwen. I was sent from Rivendell to look for you. The pursuit is close. What you bear brings us all into peril. (in conversation with Aragorn) Aragorn- has the Grey Pilgrim arrived in Rivendell? Is there news? Arwen- No. Not when I departed; but that was two days ago. Aragorn- You cannot withstand the Nine alone. Arwen- If I can reach the Ford ahead of them my father can command the river to protect him. I do not fear them.

23.
1.05.13 – 1.08.10 - Flight to the Ford. Cut a few shots with Riders and Arwen milling in and out of each other among the trees and tried to keep it looking like a chase with her in front and them in pursuit throughout. Also as with Frodo doing the same on foot earlier I feel it reduces the threat of the Riders when you are happily weaving about so close to them. Cut out Arwen chanting to raise the river as the new dialogue in the previous scene now gives a more book explanation.

Notes- a lot is cut. Following Tolkien structuring the viewer never sees Mordor in the present time frame until Frodo and Sam get there- so there are no cuts to Barad-Dur being constructed, no Black Riders leaving Mordor, or entering the Shire. Nothing appears in the story until its proper time. This was one of the major tenants of my edits, that structurally it should mirror the book, as I believe Tolkien is better at telling a story than PJ, who wants you to know everything to soon, like a child showing you a new toy. Also I cut entirely what is happening to Gandalf at Isengard from Book 1, like with the Black Riders not knowing creates a mystery, but more importantly it adheres to another Tolkien tenant I was determined to stick too- when the story is with any of the hobbits we only get what they get to know. It also maintains the focus of the story, initially its almost solely on Bilbo, and then on the four hobbits and then the four hobbits and Aragorn, without distraction.

If you have access to my drive then book1 is on there and can be streamed in HD. Now you even have a handy guide to accompany it!

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Post by Bluebottle on Thu Jan 01, 2015 7:40 am

Nice. Very Happy Makes me want to give it a rewatch.

Any plans of a Purist commentary on Jacksons cut? Or would that be too crabbit inducing? Razz

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Post by Forest Shepherd on Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:26 am

Pettytyrant wrote:
4. 04.06 – 08.10 - Frodo meets Gandalf. Removed Gandalf setting off the fireworks for the hobbit children as it makes him too twinkly eyed and friendly and not crabbit enough like he is in the book. And because in the book he expressly forbids even Frodo having a single squib, and sends Frodo to guard the cart against firework thieves.
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Ha! I like how you cut out Jackson's cameo.


Last edited by Forest Shepherd on Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:28 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:28 am

Glad you found it interesting Blue.

These are my notes for a commentary, with a bit of rewriting to make them a post.

Here is book 2- I have gone in a bit more detail into the reasons for my choices.


Book 2

1. 00.00 – 01.06  Frodo awakens in Rivendell. No edits.

2. 01.06 -  07.31  Extended flashback scene to Isengard: Gandalf arrives at Isengard. Cut from end of garden conversation- 'what time do you think we have'. To interior of tower and line- 'The Nine have left Minas Morgul.' Cut down number of doors that shut as there are so many it borders on comedic. Cut the fight scene to be much shorter and less stupid. Intercut shots of Gandalf on top of tower with orcs cutting down the trees. Cut moth scene once moth leaves Gandalf. Cut to final scene with Saruman and Gandalf. Back to Rivendell.

Some of the choices made here were for brevity, I didn't want to be 'away' from Rivendell over long. And some things, like the palantir scene I didn't think it needed highlighted this way. And as the purist edit contains no scene of Saruman using it it was even less necessary. And some stuff went because its purpose was to set up jeopardy for the main characters on their journey to Rivendell, which was now over so it was superfluous. I did retain the tree chopping and the arming of Isengard, from the pov of Gandalf however to set up later events. But not the Uruk- Hai birthing, which was moved to a later scene.

3. 07.31- 11.02  Rivendell montage- seeing Merry and Pippin, meeting old Bilbo. Unedited.

4. 11.02 – 13.33 Elrond and Gandalf discuss the situation. Added visuals of Saruman in caverns of Isengard witnessing 'birthing' of Uruk Hai under Gandalf''s dialogue  'Saruman has crossed orcs with goblin men..' This seemed a good way to get the information needed into the film without using any more time or making the Isengard flashback any longer.

Cut Elrond flashback to Isildur at Mt Doom as its now in Shadows of the Past. Cut out any hint about Aragorn being reluctant to be King. Now fades to Aragorn on Gandalf's line- 'there is one who could reclaim the throne of Gondor.' Cutting Elrond's response about Aragorn turning from that path long ago. This was part of removing the notion Aragorn is reluctant about being King.

5. 13.33 -  15.23 Aragorn meets Boromir. No edits to main scene. Cuts just before arrival of Arwen as her dialogue is all about him being reluctant.

6. 15.23 – 17.00  Aragorn and Arwen on bridge. Rewrote all the elvish subtitles based on dialogue from the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen. Conversation now reads:
Arwen- 'It is many years now since first we met.
Aragorn- I thought you were Luthien, of whose beauty I sang.
Arwen- Her name is not mine, yet it is said I walk in her likeness. And maybe my doom will not be unlike hers. Do you remember my words upon Caras Galdhon?
Aragorn- You said you would bind yourself to me. Forsaking the immortal life of your people.'
Rest of conversation remains the same.

7. 17.00 – 24.46 Council of Elrond. Cut out some dialogue from Legolas regards his defence of Aragorn, to make it seem less weird that Legolas knows so much about Aragorn, and to begin the downplay of Legolas and Aragorn's friendship throughout which I felt PJ gave more time and development too than Legolas friendship with Gimli.  I have edited throughout the films to make Legolas' friendship with Gimli the focus.
Edited Boromir's lines so he doesn't automatically and mysteriously seem to know this hidden ranger is Aragorn, would be King.  

8. 24.46 - 26.27- Aragorn's mothers grave. Reforging of Narsil.
Replaced Elrond elvish subtitles over Aragorn clearing the gravestone with Aragorn's mothers last words- lifted from when spoken by Elrond in RotK and joining into the bit in English “In her heart your mother knew you would be hunted.”
Ends on a fade cut on the line “only you can wield it” into Arwen reciting the sword verse (cut the flashback to Ring being cut as its once to often and unneeded). Reforging of the sword. All the reforging footage taken from RotK,
Added fade in of Aragorn's face alongside the existing fade in shots of Elrond and Arwen to give impression Aragorn is present at the reforging.

The graveside scene is a conversation chopped in half, moving the unrelated material about Arwen to later. As the first part is about the sword, and I cut Aragorn's reluctance surrounding it and kingship it seemed a good place to put the reforging scene.

9. 26.27 - 28.06-  Bilbo gives Frodo Sting and mithril shirt. Unedited save for little off the end for sound reasons.
Placing this scene here was a continuation of themes- swords and a sense of things being passed down. Now Frodo and Aragorn are both coming into their own fully, symbolised by swords passed to them by their fore-bearers.

10. 28.06 – 28.37 Elrond tells Aragorn to let Arwen go on the ships to the Undying Lands. Second half of the graveside conversation. Unedited other than being half a scene used as a whole scene and moved.

11. 28. 37 – 30.03 Aragorn prepares to leave and meets Arwen. Rewrote all the elvish dialogue: Arwen- You would depart without speaking? Your face is grim my lord. What is it troubles you?
Aragorn- You must go with your people.
Arwen- You speak as my father would were he here. Why do you speak so?
Aragorn- Because he has been a father to me also.
Arwen- And you like a son to him.
Aragorn- I cannot do this. I will not. I cannot part you from him. Or be the cause of your parting.
The remainder of the conversation in English remains the same.

All these changes are to trying to achieve several things. Part of the choice is restricted by the amount they say and how they say it, or if its an obvious question or not- for whatever reason elvish sentences are brief in LotR's compared to English ones. And really important information is never conveyed in elvish, they always switch to English for the crucial bit of plot so the two have to join in meaning.
Secondly I wanted to retain the Aragorn/Arwen story in the film as its important to Aragorn's story and motivations- this meant retaining the unpurist notion she eventually leaves for the ships before changing her mind. But still trying to bring the substance of their relationship, and of Aragorn's with Elrond, back closer to that of the book. This is built on later too at Lothlorien in conversation with Galadriel.

12. 30.03- 31.18  Departure from Rivendell. I edited out a reaction shot of Arwen as it did not now reflect the preceding scene's content.
Edited out Frodo asking Gandalf which way is it to Mordor. I felt that in the book this scene is rather grim, the weather is dull and overcast, its cold, and windy, everyone is huddled up waiting. It shouldn't have levity this moment of setting off. And I wanted to maintain the sombre mode PJ does successfully convey prior to that.

13. 31.19 – 32.20 Walking montage. Unedited.

14. 32.20 – 34.20  Spies of Isengard. No edits.
Ends at “We must take the Paths of Caradhras”- no cut to Saruman.

15. 34.20 – 35.40 Boromir picks up the Ring from the snow. No edits.

16. 35.40 – 37.42 Caradhras. Sound loop at the start to replace the Saruman voice over on the visuals.
No cut away to Saruman on Orthanc tower.  
Cut Saruman foreshadowing the Balrog.
Cut Frodo being asked to make the decision, as its very stupid given he knows nothing about the place and who else is present that are better qualified.

17. 37.42 – 43.14 Doors of Moria. Watcher in the Water. Cut out shot of Boromir walking past Gandalf just after Gandalf says “Evil will be drawn to it from outside the Fellowship and I fear from within.” It too heavily signposting Boromir.
Cut Gimli's speech about expecting roaring fires, meat and ales as its as stupid as it is confusing.
Cut Frodo being grabbed and dangled, but retained several fighting shots of Boromir and Aragorn cutting tentacles and Legolas firing arrows where Frodo was out of shot to keep an element of action and spectacle. This was done to keep events more grounded (literally) and not be unrealistic in what sort of physical punishment a character can take.

18. 43.14  - 44.31 Moria walking montage. The entire Moria segment as been significantly darkened with a filter.

19. 44.31- 48.54 Mithril vein. Choice of Three Ways. Cut out Gandalf's line telling Frodo Gollum's real name, as its now already implied he did so back at Bag End with the Smeagol/Deagol flashback.

20. 48.54 – 52.51 Hall of Pillars. Balin's Tomb.  No edits.

21. 52.51 – 57.03 Orc fight. Troll scene. Cut various small pieces of action where it seemed OTT.
Greatly shortened the cat and mouse between Frodo and the troll, especially how many times they go round the pillar as its stupid.
Troll just stabs Frodo with spear splicing the shots here Frodo falls backwards from the troll roar with the final one where he gets stabbed and cutting out everything in-between.
Cut some shots of Merry being dangled by troll. Cut lots of Legolas running about chains. Well all of it in fact.
The aim here was just to shorten the length of the troll fight, which was disproportionately long in comparison to the Balrog confrontation, and to take the more OTT elements out of it and keep the feel established in the opening shots of the orc attack, of a realistic fight going on.

22. 57.03 -58.44  Orc chase. Cut cockroach orcs out climbing from ceiling and down pillars.
I never liked the cockroach idea, if orcs had that tech built into their armour Helm's Deep's nor Minas Tirith's walls would have been a problem at all.

23. 58. 44 – 1.01.20 Bridge of Khazad-dum. Cut entire staircase sequence preceding it. Edited down the time it takes Gandalf to fall in.
Added a flash to white on exit from dark filtered Moria to make the viewers eyes hurt as they emerge into the daylight!

24. 1.01.20 - 1.06.01 Moria to Haldir on the flet.
Cut Gimli swearing in dwarvish  at Haldir and Aragorn's response.

25. 1.06.01 – 1.13.13 Lorien. Galadriel and Celeborn. Aragorn talks with Boromir.
Added green tinted filter to change from the night blue of the original. This was because the book specifies that Lorien is green and growing and that elves are not all stars and moonlight, as Sam puts it.
The fact its also an unnatural light is symbolic of the power of the Lady through Nenya. Lorien's unnatural in the book in that time flows differently within its bounds so it reflects that artificial effect Galadriel holds over the place.  
As Sauron's filter is red, and Gandalfs is white, so hers is symbolised by the green growing light of Lorien. That's the idea anyway. A colour for each of the those bearing a ring and using its powers.
Cut Aragorn's reluctant reaction to Boromir talking about Gondor.

26. 1.13.13 -  1.18.39 Mirror of Galadriel. Cut Galadriel's “you know of whom I speak” stuff signposting Boromir as a threat.

27. 1.18.39 – 1.24.01 Departure from Lorien. Gift Giving. Rewrote elvish subtitles in conversation between Galadriel and Aragorn :  
(elvish) Galadriel- I see what troubles you. My granddaughter, Arwen Undomiel.
Aragorn- Lady, you know all my desire and long held in keeping the only treasure I seek. Yet, it is not yours to give me, even if you would. But that choice cannot be mine.
(English) Galadriel- That choice is yet before her. You have your own choice to make Aragorn, to rise above the height of all your fathers since the days of Elendil. Or to fall into darkness with all that  is left of your kin. (elvish) Farewell. Perhaps we must lose her, whom we love, but we will lose her to no less a man than King, Elessar.

The idea here, as there was no way to include it at Rivendell, was to reinstate, but shift Elrond's book ban on Aragorn marrying Arwen and its conditions, to Galadriel giving the conditions, who is at least still family.

28. 1.24.01- 1.28.46 River montage. Uruk-Hai pursuit. Night camp on river bank. Argonath. Edited Aragorn and Boromir's conversation to remove indications of Aragorn's reluctance to be King.

29. 1.28.46- 1.35.34  Camp discussion about route. Boromir confronts Frodo. Frodo puts on the Ring meets Aragorn. No edits.

30. 1.35.34 – 1.40.22 Orc attack. Boromir's death. Reordered some scenes here. Small cuts to excesses.
Cut Frodo seeing Merry and Pippin, as if he had he would never have left them like that.
No cuts to Boromir deaths scene but it fades out to Frodo on the beach when Boromir is on his knees and orcs are running past him leaving with the hobbits. This was to remove the 'featured' orc of the film, as without the focus on the birthing scene, or cuts to Saruman giving him orders, or a big showdown with Aragorn at the end there was no need to give this particular orc an arc.

31. 1.40.22 -1.46.01 Frodo decides to leave. Sam joins him. Aragorn laments Boromir.
Split the scene of Frodo leaving in two.
First part now ends with Frodo pushing the boat out into the water and Sam running through the trees after him.
It then cuts to Aragorn arriving to find Boromir. Slight editing of conversation to remove any hint of Aragorn's reluctance to be King.
Cut back to Frodo paddling away and Sam running onto beach.
Cut amount of time Sam is underwater to something more believable and less dragged out for cheap emotional effect, as the added false peril emotion here is not needed on top of what just happened.

32. 1.46.01- 1.48.39 Boromir's funeral. Aragorn's decision. Frodo and Sam set off into the Emyn Muil. No editing changes.  

Notes- The biggest overall change to how the film feels when watching it was the decision to stick to Tolkien's rule that the story never leaves the main characters.
There are therefore no cut always at all to anywhere else except the flashback scene in Rivendell to Isengard. But once they leave the viewer never leaves the Fellowship for the remainder of the film. And new places are only encountered as the Fellowship reach them.
The other big change is to the character of Aragorn. He is no longer reluctant.
His story with Arwen is a mix now of more book and some film elements.
From the film we still have Elrond's refusal to leave his daughter behind to die. Aragorn telling her to go with her people, and her refusal of that.
But Aragorn's reasons have changed, now he does it because he will not be the one responsible for splitting up father and daughter, when Elrond has been like a father to him as well.
The conversation with Galadriel offers Aragorn some hope, she hints at the possibility they would be willing to leave Arwen behind that the choice is still hers in the end, and then she lays down the book conditions given by Elrond- that Aragorn must first prove himself and become King before he came marry Arwen.
These two changes to his character- no reluctance to be king, and the being given the conditions for marrying Arwen are significant alterations to the original film Aragorn and his motivations. Now he is directly motivated again by love to become King.

That brings it up to the end of FotR. The film most folk, myself included, would say was the one closest to and most respectful of Tolkien's original.
But even so as you can see it still required a lot of editing work to bring it back more inline with the book.


Last edited by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Jan 02, 2015 5:01 am; edited 3 times in total

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:29 am

Its all about attention to detail Forest- and wherever possible I want my crabbit old Gandalf back!!

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat Jan 03, 2015 9:05 pm

No idea if anyone is actually reading this stuff. I have tried to make it vaguely interesting I promise! And not getting anywhere has never stopped me before and its not going to now- so here is Book 3 break down and reasons, whether you bloody well want it or not Mad

Book 3

1. 0.00 - 0.36 - The entire opening has been reordered. The Gandalf/Balrog intro is moved to much later.
Opens on Aragorn listening to the rocks. Ends on Gimli's line “..no sign of our quarry but what bare rock can tell.”

2. 0.36 – 02.49 Uruk Hai with Merry and Pippin.  Uruks meet orcs from Mordor. Merry gets medicine. Pippin drops brooch. No edits.

3. 02.49 – 04.09 Three Hunters running montage. Aragorn finds Pippin's brooch. Cut Gimli's prat fall. This is the first in a continuing series of cuts to not make Gimli a joke. Joins straight into Legolas- they are taking the hobbits to Isengard-  section. That Isengard line, which in the original is annoying because its Legolas stating the bloody obvious, is now a revelation as its the first confirmation since the brief visuals of the Uruks in Isengard with Saruman under Gandalf's words back at Rivendell, that these orcs are from Isengard.

4. 04.09 – 05.05 Uruks running montage. Three hunters pursuing montage.

5. 05.05 – 07.59 Uruks night camp. Rohirrim attack. Cut 'ent' sounds when orcs are cutting trees for fire, cut out Merry telling Pippin about ents as its set up that is not needed, its clumsily contrived to just before they meet ents and ruins the surprise of Treebeard when he does appear.

6. 07.59 - 12.10 – Three Hunters meet Eomer. No edits.

7. 12.10 – 14.45 Aragorn tracks hobbits to Fangorn.  Cut dubbed on voice over of Merry's cry “the belt!” to highlight the belt pointed out all of 10 seconds ago by Gimli. I chose to believe those watching my edits are not this stupid.

8. 14.45 – 18.15 Merry and Pippin meet Treebeard. No edits.

9. 18.15 – 25.45 Gandalf returns. Shadowfax.
Cut Gimli's 'squirrel dung' joke.  Fade at Aragorn's words 'you fell' into scenes from the intro Balrog fall and Gandalf's words “through fire and water” over the top.
Added flash to white at midpoint when they impact with the water to mask cut to top of mountain fight.
This scene would have worked fine without the Balrog footage, but some of it was quite spectacular, and there is nothing wrong in film with a little spectacle here an there. The excessive shots of superman Gandalf were left unused! But it was a case of the footage was there, there was a cut to the mountain fight anyway, so may as well show some of the fall too.
Cut Gimli's lines played for humour  about the trees.
No cuts to Shadowfax section.

10. 25.45 – 28.44 Treebeard's Songs. Uruks leave Isengard. Treebeard goes to call the Moot. This is actually two scenes spliced together into one new scene.
The first part is Treebeard walking with Merry and Pippin singing a version of the song of the ents and the entwives. However the final lines of the song are placed over the footage of Treebeard with the hobbits walking with Isengard in the background. This merges the two scenes together; the songs and the scene where they see the army leave.
This puts the army leaving much earlier in the narrative- but I felt this gave a more realistic time frame for them to reach the Fords, take the Fords, cross the Westfold burning and looting and reach Helms Deep.

11. 28.44 – 30.52 Night camp, Gandalf talks to Aragorn. No edits.

12. 30.52 -  35.07 Merry and Pippin and Old Man Willow lite. Ent wives conversation.
Cut out all the burping, farting noises on Pippin's part regards the ent-water.
In terms of the scene I feel the character humour over Merry's indignation that Pippin is now taller than him is more than enough levity, and more interesting than burping farting groaning noises.

13. 35.10 -  40.25 Arrival at Edoras. Introduction to Eowyn. Scene with Theoden. Scene with Wormtongue.
I found that the films entire set up for introducing the cast of Edoras was completely unnecessary and overkill. Whilst I quite liked the Ford scene there was no place for it any more in the narrative style and it was not actually needed to tell the narrative.
All the Eomer been thrown out and Wormtongue stuff  were just an unnecessary distraction and poor caricatures of their book characters. That was easy and necessary to lose.
Gandalf gives the bare bones big picture detail on their arrival- “There dwells Theoden King of Rohan, whose mind is overthrown. Saruman's hold over King Theoden is now very strong.”
The scenes between Eowyn and Theoden and with Wormtongue makes dumping the rest possible, and gives the personal  small scale picture of the court, as it contains all the information the viewer needs: visual confirmation that the King is sick in some fashion. He is her uncle. His son has just died. Wormtongues introduction at the deathbed also works better I feel as its at least text from the book and provides all the set up needed for his character and hers as well as the information that Eomer is her brother and he has been banished.
The repetition of information in the script to make sure the viewer is keeping up is what allows the purist edit to cut almost every cutaway from members of the Fellowship without any loss of important story or character information.
This section is only one of two times in Book 3 that there is a full cut away to somewhere without a member of the Fellowship present. Although they are right outside, talking about the very stuff the scenes then show and their ride into Edoras is intercut with it.
So it feels less like a cutaway from Aragorn and co than it would otherwise and doesn't break the overall feeling that you are with these characters and this storyline throughout and seeing events from their eyes.

14. 40.25 – 46.43 Casting out of Saruman from Theoden. Banishment of Wormtongue. No edits.

15. 46.43 – 50.00 Funeral of Theoden. Gandalf and Theoden talk about loss. No edits.

16. 50.00 – 52.59 Council to discuss situation. Theoden decides to evacuate to Helm's Deep. Gandalf leaves.
Cut out Gandalf thinking going to Helm's Deep is a bad idea, as its his plan in the book, and I don't understand in the film why he thinks they could make a better stand at Edoras, which would be almost instantly overwhelmed.

17. 52.59 – 56.56 Aragorn and Arwen in stables. Theoden 'we will return'. Aragorn talks with Eowyn, cage speech. Departure from Edoras.
In stables cut immediately after Aragorn says “I was raised in Rivendell for a time.” To him then waking away. This was to downplay the implication I felt given in the films that Aragorn was leading her on somewhat.
No cuts to Theoden or second Aragorn/Arwen conversation.
Cut a little of the end of the final panning back shot of the people leaving to remove Wormtongue voice over.

18. 56.56 – 58.15 Start of ent moot. This is considerably earlier in the narrative to give the impression it goes on much longer, more like the book version.

19. 58.15 – 1.00.49 March to Helm's Deep. Theoden talks about Eowyn. Stew, Aragorn gives his age.
Cut out Gimli's prat fall from the horse.
Cut out Aragorn's bad reaction to the stew as much as possible (you will note the spurious thread on Forumshire- does Petty have a rival- which had some would be crabbit pedantic pointing out the stew issue, when I had long ago solved it!) .

20. 1.00.49 – 1.02.38 Ent moot night. This is another example of taking shots from two scenes and making a new one of them. In this case there are two very short night scenes of the ent moot. The first half takes from the first Treebeard's 'everything takes a long time to say' speech, but with occasional shots, such as Treebeard turning round from the moot, from the second scene. The bulk of the second scene is then added to the start of the first, the 'we are running out of time' scene.

21. 1.02.38 – 1.06.43 Eowyn asks Aragorn about Arwen. Arwen, Elrond.
This is the only full cutaway scene in Book 3. It fades on Eowyn's question “where is she? The woman who gave you that jewel” to the scene where Elrond convinces Arwen to stay and we get the vision of her future.
Whilst it is a complete cutaway from the story I felt it was important narratively to have a reminder of that story line, and as the bit about her future is drawn from the book it seemed justified as well furthering Aragorn's character.
Fades back to Aragorn and Eowyn on Arwen leaving with elves, and into Eowyn prompting Aragorn for an answer to her question about the jewel.

22. 1.06.43 – 1.08.00 Arrival at Helms Deep. There a series of small cuts to length of several shots here to hide the fact Aragorn nor the King are present. The scene with Theoden on the battlements is paced right onto the panning shot of Helms Deep on arrival. This immediately shows the King is there.

23. 1.08.00 – 1.13. 28 Aragorn scouts the enemy reports back. 'Not so lucky in our friends' speech. Arwen/Aragorn.
The entire warg, Aragorn over cliff, river section is cut. The premise now is Aragorn is just scouting the land outside Helms Deep when he sees the army. It cuts immediately to him reporting back on Theoden's line “A great host you say?”
Cuts immediately on “secure the gates” to Eowyn confronting Aragorn in the streets.

24.  1.13. 28- 1.15.58 Armoury. Theoden's armour.
Legolas' outburst and tiff with Aragorn is cut. This is in furtherance of down playing the Aragorn/Legolas friendship and up playing the Legolas/Gimli one in keeping with book.
Scene cuts on Legolas' line “or too few” to Theoden putting on armour. No edits to that scene.
Cut from Theoden arming to Aragorn arming. Retained Legolas handing him his sword, as it can be read as a comrade in arms gesture rather than the healing of their tiff as its actually used for in the original.

25. 1.15.58 – 1.22.36 Build up and first part of battle.
There too many individual cuts to go into here. Mainly because of the need to edit out all the elves. Some wide shots do contain elves, but anything close enough to distinguish blonde haired Rohirrim, from better armoured blonde haired elves is cut. And of course Legolas more extreme antics like shield surfing are cut.
Cut the box gag as I felt it overly broke the tension as well as playing into the Gimli is a joke feel.
There is no cutaway at the start of the counting game to the ent moot, as that has already been used earlier. The Helms Deep section continues straight on with the assault on the Gates.
Cuts made to the suicide bomber orc. There isn't one. The bomb goes off immediately after the orcs carrying it set it and run away. The music for this sequence is re-timed to the explosion. The first part of the battle ends on the shot of the orcs pouring through the breach in the wall.

26. 1.22.36 – 1.24.29 Ents go to war.
This is a bit of a jump. But I feel it just about works and provides the information needed. This scene opens with Treebeard surveying Isengard. And stating “A wizard should know better.” Before bellowing and calling the other ents.
It seemed that it was not necessary to see the end of the moot, so much as what decision they had come to- which was war. This gets rid of the whole problem of Treebeard not seeming to know what's being going on in his own wood and falling for a stupid trick to go see, or why all the other ents were doing just hanging about behind him at the tree line.
In my head he just doesn't tell Merry and Pippin the Moot decision until they get there because he is not being too hasty.
This scene is again earlier in the narrative, as it gives a bit more time for the Hourns to get from Isengard to Helm's Deep. This also meant putting a night filter on it to bring it more in line with helms Deep. Although it is not too strong or dark. It is still much lighter than Helms Deep but I thought the difference in location and cloud cover was ample explanation for that.

27. 1.24.29 – 1.28.37 Second part of the battle. Aragorn Legolas and Gimli escape, fight at gates, gates fall and retreat to Hornburg.
Whilst the elves are cut scenes with the company fighting behind the walls are retained, and the retreat up the staircase.
Cut the dwarf tossing gag between Aragorn and Gimli outside the gate. Aragorn no longer throws Gimli over first, but leaps himself first, and Gimli is presumed to follow without it being shown, as the wide shot that follows shows them both fighting.
Cut out the entire middle section of them being hauled up the rope. They grab the rope and get pulled up. It cuts to some fighting on the walls. Then cuts back to them arriving at the top and being pulled over to safety. This was done because the whole premise is ludicrous, but by not showing so much of it so clearly it seemed slightly less ludicrous.

28. 1.28.37 – 1.29.35 Ents assault Isengard. This is actually one scene spit in two. This first half ends just after the hobbits do the stone throwing thing and on Saruman at his balcony watching the destruction and cuts to the orcs storming the doors of the Hornburg. I picked the Saruman shot to cut on because in both it and the orcs charging the Hornburg the character are moving quickly from right to left side of frame.

29. 1.29.35 – 1.34.12 The Charge from the Hornburg. Arrival of Gandalf, Eomer.
No cuts.

30. 1.34.12 – 1.35.38 Flooding of Isengard.
This the second half of the earlier Isengard scene.

31. 1.35.38 – 1.39.21 Arrival of Hourns. Flotsam and jetsam, food shed. End of battle.
Cuts from Hourns straight to the end of the counting game. Scene ends after Gimli's “I'm sitting pretty on 43” cutting out the nervous system stuff.
No cuts to Isengard scene.

32. 1.39.21 – 1.46.47 Arrival at Isengard. Voice of Saruman. Pippin picks up palantir.
There is a cut to the panning up from the trees to reveal Isengard shot to remove the 'Return of the King' titles.
No cuts to the gate scene or scene with Treebeard.
Re-cut the Saruman scenes. Cut some of his stuff together so he goes from “rods of the five wizards!” to “you cannot think this ranger will ever sit upon throne” in an unbroken speech.
Cut Gimli's 'shoot him in the gob' stuff as its not Tolkien language, except maybe for an orc.
Cut Saruman chucking a fireball at Gandalf, Tolkien's wizards are not the chuck fireballs about at each other kind.
Cut out Gandalf wanting information from Saruman about where the enemy will strike- as its obvious everyone knows he will go for Gondor, its right next door to Mordor.

33. 1.46.47 – 1.55.53 Arrival back at Edoras. Honouring the Dead. Gandalf talks with Aragorn. Aragorn/Eowyn Numenor conversation. Legolas talks about the stars being veiled. Pippin looks in Palantir.
Cut dialogue between Eowyn and Theoden that gives the impression Theoden thinks Eowyn and Aragorn are an item of some sort.
Cut Gandalf and Aragorn's conversation short without Gandalf answering the question of 'what does your heart tell you?'in relation to Frodo still being alive. As the viewer doesn't know how Frodo is doing I did want to give anything away and thought it better to leave the question hanging in the air.
No cuts to Eowyn Numenor scene, Legolas scene or palantir scene.

34. 1.55.53 – Gandalf decides what to do with Pippin. Merry and Pippin's parting conversation. Gandalf and Pippin leave.
Cut the anti-tobacco message from the hobbit conversation as hobbits would never think about pipe-weed that way. Scene ends on Merry with Aragorn watching Pippin ride away.

Notes - Like the book this story ends on a victory then a downer and everything hanging in the balance. Which is just how this story line in the middle story in a trilogy should end. As it does in the book.
Like FotR there are almost no cutaways and the viewer stays with the two story strands, Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli and the Merry and Pippin and the ents line throughout.
This makes the narrative in this one very strong and very focused I think.
It also, despite all the change still present, makes the story feel a lot more Tolkien again as its structure feels right to the experience of reading the book. Including the frustration of not knowing what is going on with Frodo and Sam.

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Post by David H on Sat Jan 03, 2015 10:07 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Cut out Aragorn's bad reaction to the stew as much as possible (you will note the spurious thread on Forumshire- does Petty have a rival- which had some would be crabbit pedantic pointing out the stew issue, when I had long ago solved it!) .

You may rest easy Petty. Your crabbit throne is secure! Smile


Last edited by David H on Sun Jan 04, 2015 6:29 am; edited 1 time in total

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Petty's Purist LotR Edits [4] - Page 9 1280px-Male_kodiak_bear_face  Petty's Purist LotR Edits [4] - Page 9 UJpDi Petty's Purist LotR Edits [4] - Page 9 Mumbea10
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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat Jan 03, 2015 10:45 pm

Ah but is it with Awards coming up?! Anxious times! Mad

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Post by Bagger Vance on Sun Jan 11, 2015 5:35 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:No idea if anyone is actually reading this stuff.

I certainly am. I find this fascinating... and I love your edits. Watched AUJ, DOS, and Book 1 so far. I actually think they flow pretty well and are pretty exciting. I especially like that I can show them to my kids (especially the hobbit ones) and not only worry less about any over-the-top violence, but that they're also a little more understandable.

BTW... loved your changes to "The Shadow of the Past" section of the Book 1 edit. That is one of my favorite chapters in the whole book trilogy and I thought your edit preserved a little more of the magic than the theatrical and/or EE did.
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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun Jan 11, 2015 5:41 pm

Thanks Bagger. Glad you are enjoying them.
I am having some problems sadly accessing my second drive that the rest of the edits are on but soon as I get back into it I will add you to that one too so you can see the rest as I think the first drive only has the first 3 books on it.

Making the TH films kid friendly was a priority of mine when making them, not just because I felt the levels of violence were inappropriate for a film based on a book for 7 and up but because I felt the abrupt shifts in tone were not helping the story or the flow.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Jan 12, 2015 5:59 am

Reuploading book 2 so it can be watched streaming. But will probably not be available until tomorrow or the day after as its been going about 7 hours already and only at 12% done Mad

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:08 pm

Extremely Crabbit Extremely Crabbit Extremely Crabbit Two days solid of uploading- 73% done- and the weather knocks my internet off!!!!! Got to start all over again. Banghead

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Post by halfwise on Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:34 pm

Uh-oh, somebody has already done a Hobbit edit into one movie, and it's getting some press!

https://tolkieneditor.wordpress.com/

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