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Post by Mrs Figg on Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:00 pm


what a load of tosh. sorry but it is. its like reading somebody who has watched 5 seasons of GOT and suddenly realises its about medieval morals and they start blaming the production team for daring to put the story on the screen. it would be funny if it wasn't so sanctimonious.

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Post by halfwise on Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:22 pm



How is the idea that women should like nice guys misogynistic?  If instead a room full of women wrote storylines in which men should like women because they are nice, would it be classed as whatever the mirror reflection of misogyny is?  NO.  It would be read as self-pitying writers making a dream world where they actually get a date.

I'm willing to accept the accusation that the GoT male writing room is writing a dream world where they can get a date. And some things they write seem to take GRRM's more nuanced view and shove it into male/female role playing.  But why everything they write has to be crazily twisted around to be misogyny totally escapes me.

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Post by Bluebottle on Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:28 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:No prostitute is free in Westeros.

I'm sorry, you are still missing the point. The SEX SLAVE is offering him sex FOR FREE because HE'S SUCH A GREAT GUY.

And this is Essos, not Westeros.

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Post by Bluebottle on Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:30 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:

what a load of tosh. sorry but it is. its like reading somebody who has watched 5 seasons of GOT and suddenly realises its about medieval morals and they start blaming the production team for daring to put the story on the screen. it would be funny if it wasn't so sanctimonious.

I'm sorry, but once you realize half the problem is their subversion of the story of the books that does not share these "medieval morals" I think we'll have made a significant step forward.

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Post by Bluebottle on Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:32 pm

halfwise wrote:How is the idea that women should like nice guys misogynistic?  If instead a room full of women wrote storylines in which men should like women because they are nice, would it be classed as whatever the mirror reflection of misogyny is?  NO.  It would be read as self-pitying writers making a dream world where they actually get a date.

I'm willing to accept the accusation that the GoT male writing room is writing a dream world where they can get a date. And some things they write seem to take GRRM's more nuanced view and shove it into male/female role playing.  But why everything they write has to be crazily twisted around to be misogyny totally escapes me.

I'm sorry, but that view from someone who has read the books really astounds me. And these aren't my postulaic pronouncements. I've quoted examples. Please compare the Daznaks Pit scene in the show with the one in the book, please compare the Tyrion sex slave scene with the one from the book and get back to me.

The problem is not that the show removes the nuances of Georges work, but that it's at points the complete antithesis of it.

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Post by Bluebottle on Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:34 pm


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Post by halfwise on Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:48 pm

I'm equally astounded that some people are taking such a scorched earth policy to the show writing. It's really twisting everything around to a single narrow point of view: that every change from the books is in service to a women-as-sex objects point of view.

The sex slave scene is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.  The book version is more misogynistic than the show (though far more psychological), but people (such as the author in the link proffered) painfully twist it around to say the opposite.  The fact that it's much less realistic than the book (and therefore inferior writing) is something entirely separate.

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Post by Mrs Figg on Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:23 am

Bluebottle wrote:
Mrs Figg wrote:No prostitute is free in Westeros.

I'm sorry, you are still missing the point. The SEX SLAVE is offering him sex FOR FREE because HE'S SUCH A GREAT GUY.

And this is Essos, not Westeros.

and the problem with that is.? ? . Why cant the poor girl like a nice guy??.. scratch nope don't get it...?????

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Post by Mrs Figg on Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:31 am

I am getting increasingly flummoxed by all these quite bizarre accusations against the writers. Its like calling the writers of Breaking Bad crackwhores. its fucking bonkers. I know when I am looking at misogyny because I have had lots of experience with it and generally I have a hair trigger, (as you will have seen on the Who thread), but sexism coming from D&D is flailing at windmill time peeps.

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Post by Bluebottle on Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:43 am

Yes, because critisizing writers on their writing is certainly beyond the pale. Rolling Eyes

To be honest, I think that's my curtain call. When people start intimating that someones writing is beyond the realms of criticism, there's not really a conversation going on that I feel much need to be party to.

I'll leave off by quoting famed german cyclist Jan Ullrich. "Whoever still can't put one and one together about what happened in cycling is beyond my help."

Whoever still can't put two and two together about what's going on with this show is beyond my help.

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Post by Bluebottle on Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:50 am

Not that I begrudge anyone enjoying the show. (Just slightly looking down on them, in my snobbish way.) Very Happy

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Post by Mrs Figg on Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:59 am

that is not what I am saying. of course you have every right to criticise the writing. if it sucks, it sucks. That's not the issue here. The issue is alleged intentions of the writers to promote sexism, when I am saying that these people are professionals doing a job, they are not in the business to slide in misogyny through the back door just because it portrays misogyny. of course it portrays misogyny, Westeros,( or Essos) a misogynistic society. There are going to be sex slaves floating about, its Game of Thrones. sex slaves is why I like it. Very Happy


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Post by Bluebottle on Sun Feb 28, 2016 1:02 am

Sorry, I'm done. You'll have to live with your show. I'm not going to convince you to hate it. Very Happy

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Post by Mrs Figg on Sun Feb 28, 2016 1:05 am

I could never hate it. its the best thing on tv. Very Happy

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Post by Bluebottle on Sun Feb 28, 2016 1:11 am

Well, if by best you mean worst. (I know you british love understatement.) Wink

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Post by halfwise on Sun Feb 28, 2016 3:54 am

If you've read what I've written, I'm not against criticizing the writers, just over-criticizing with an obvious agenda. Yes, they may have put unnecessary misogyny in there, but every flippin' line they write? It's ridiculous.

If the quoted websites had been reasonable with their criticism, then no complaints. But um....yeah.

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Post by Bluebottle on Sun Feb 28, 2016 1:59 pm

Well, if you do agree there are problems, everything else is just a question of debating degrees, no? Shrugging

And I'm sure they wouldn't say they think there is misogyny in "every flippin' line", if you asked them. Wink

http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/ask

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Post by Bluebottle on Sun Feb 28, 2016 2:04 pm

Guys, I think we should make a GoT Show-Apologist BINGO Card for Season 6. Free Space can be “Just stop watching it then!”

Other chestnuts can include:

- “That’s how it was back then!“

- “It’s just a TV show."

- "The books are the books, the show is the show.”

- “The books are boring anyway."

- "It’s GRRM’s fault because _____."

- "They can’t include EVERYTHING!"

- "You’re just a book snob.”

-"The show is equally violent towards men!”

-“That was a year ago. Let it go!”

-”It makes sense if you just use your imagination”

-“Show X was way worse than this”

-”HBO requires a T&A quota”

-”The series isn’t over..we’ll just have to wait and see before judging Y”

-”D&D know what the endgame is”

-”There’s dragons, it doesn’t have to make sense”

-”It’s the most popular show on TV”

-”Why don’t you watch kid’s cartoons where nothing bad happens?”

-”There’s bad stuff in the books too”

-”This is probably the only ending we’re going to get”
http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/post/140122757197/dinamitelove-kateofthecanals-guys-i-think

Very Happy
(This is not aimed at any of you guys, but these are pretty much endemic.)

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Post by Bluebottle on Sun Feb 28, 2016 2:11 pm


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Post by halfwise on Sun Feb 28, 2016 2:13 pm

Bluebottle wrote:Well, if you do agree there are problems, everything else is just a question of debating degrees, no? Shrugging

And I'm sure they wouldn't say they think there is misogyny in "every flippin' line", if you asked them. Wink

http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/ask


Well...saying that a book scene where a sex slave is raped is less misogynistic than where she offers sex and is declined is definitely a contortionist act. I get where they are coming from: in the book Tyrion is basically a male monster who in an act of self loathing takes what he wants and in the show he's a hero that any woman would want; but saying the second is a somehow deliberately worse take on women than the first is really pushing it. If that's a case of the writers inserting mysogny worse than the books than nothing they write can escape.

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Post by halfwise on Sun Feb 28, 2016 2:22 pm


Oh please. I can write the same about anything you hand me. Ever known someone who broadcasts that you just can't do anything right? Anything you do gets twisted around to a negative. I see these critics as this sort of toxic relationship. To be sure, I've seen much the same in these pages in relation to PJ and Moffat. They've decided ahead of time their targets can't win, can't even score a single point. Enough already.

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Post by Bluebottle on Sun Feb 28, 2016 2:23 pm

halfwise wrote:
Bluebottle wrote:Well, if you do agree there are problems, everything else is just a question of debating degrees, no? Shrugging

And I'm sure they wouldn't say they think there is misogyny in "every flippin' line", if you asked them. Wink

http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/ask


Well...saying that a book scene where a sex slave is raped is less misogynistic than where she offers sex and is declined is definitely a contortionist act.  I get where they are coming from: in the book Tyrion is basically a male monster who in an act of self loathing takes what he wants and in the show he's a hero that any woman would want; but saying the second is a somehow deliberately worse take on women than the first is really pushing it.  If that's a case of the writers inserting mysogny worse than the books than nothing they write can escape.

I think you are making the basic mistake here of not seperating betwen depiction and endorsement. Wink

http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/post/117645193922/got-meta-depiction-vs-endorsement-and-sexism

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Post by Bluebottle on Sun Feb 28, 2016 2:26 pm

Yes, the world in which Martin set his A Song of Ice and Fire (ASOIAF) is a terribly sexist one. But George R.R. Martin is not sexist. The books are not sexist. The show…is. And here’s why: where Martin actively forces the reader to address the problematic treatment of women in his series head-on as an overarching theme, showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss (D&D) actively incorporate sexist tropes and demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of the source material.
http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/post/117645193922/got-meta-depiction-vs-endorsement-and-sexism

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Post by halfwise on Sun Feb 28, 2016 2:31 pm

Look, if you can't convince Figgy who I must accept as having a keener nose for sexism than either of us, you can't convince me. Quoting the same critic doesn't help, for the reasons I stated above. I won't deny she has some points, but she's deliberately being toxic.

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Post by Bluebottle on Sun Feb 28, 2016 2:37 pm

Who said I was trying to convince anyone? scratch As I said on the last page, if you don't get it, you're beyond my help. People should go on enjoying the show if they want, it is nothing to me. I'll still think it's incredibly poor, outright problematic at points, and unless I find reason to change my tune, I'll go on saying so.

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