FREEDOM!!!! [4]

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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:10 pm

{{Its just more lies we've been fed Figg- before the vote in Holyrood we were told by the UK government was unnecessary, all this would be fully debated, after the vote happened anyway and went against the UK government they refused to discuss it or the issues, saying the proper time and place was in the Commons when the bill was up for debate. For months we've been told this- then when the debate comes round they shove the devolved amendments to the end of the running order, then filibuster the small inadequate to start with fifteen minutes of debate and not one Scottish elected MP gets to speak in this so called debate- its not a debate if the only person who gets to speak is the government minister!!! Its not just deliberately ignoring Scotland- that's more or less normal- its deliberately silencing Scotland this time and that's worse.
This cant go on. }}}


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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by Mrs Figg on Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:34 pm

I have never seen this kind of contempt for democracy before, Bercow in particular was quite obnoxious. it doesn't bode well.

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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:03 pm

{{{ It is arrogant beyond belief- even for the Tories.
And worth noting, despite the press painting this as as a solely SNP thing it is not- the vote in the Scottish Parliament rejecting the Brexit Bill was something like 90-30, everyone bar Tories pretty much. Its not about the SNP, they just represent the Scottish Parliament as its elected leaders, its about Westminster tearing up the devolution act and then ignoring the democratic will of the vote in the Scottish Parliament and then silencing any debate over their actions in the Commons and implementing the bill regardless. It can't stand. }}}

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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by David H on Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:11 pm

That's appalling! :facepalm:
I understand violent differences of opinion on these issues. That's exactly what debates are for. But to go to such lengths to stifle debate... I don't know how to interpret that except as an admission that they know they don't have a valid argument to make!

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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by Mrs Figg on Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:01 pm

yep things are deteriorating rapidly. I also noticed a weird thing in PMQs, May turns to Jacob Rees-Handmaids Tale, and its as if she is asking permission, he nods sagely and its as if its really he who is in control. weeeeeeeirrd! No

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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:32 pm

Brexit Dividend? Laughing

do they think we are idiots or what. Rolling Eyes

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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by chris63 on Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:32 am


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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by chris63 on Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:57 am


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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by azriel on Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:46 am

She done it Smile cheers

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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by halfwise on Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:35 pm

She din it! Lassie's got leg muscles and a grip. Have to give her major props for even thinking about a strength challenge as a woman; takes a youngster to come up with something like that. I think everyone must be very proud of her.

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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:38 pm

{{{ The BBC were forced into an on air apology today after falsely reporting the Scottish budget deficit.
In their report they said -

"Scotland's public finances have improved slightly, with an increase in revenue and a reduction in the deficit, according to the latest figures.
"But the Scottish Government last year spent nearly £13.5 billion more than it raised, meaning the nation's deficit is four times higher than that of the UK as a whole."

In fact that 13.5 billion is not Scottish govenrment expenditure in Scotland- it includes a massive chunk of UK government spending- including large ticker numbers like pension costs, welfare and Trident nuclear weapons (which we dont want here anyway!) among other things.
The actual amount spent by the Scottish government was less than half the amount raised in taxes! (which largely go to Westminster not the Scottish Parliament).

Fortunately there was an outcry at such blatant lying by the BBC that were forced into a rare public correction.

'The BBC have apologised on air for the inaccuracy.
A presenter explained: "Yesterday on the BBC News at One we reported on an improvement in Scotland's public finances with an increase in revenue and a reduction in the deficit.
"In doing so we said that the Scottish Government last year spent nearly £13.5bn more than it raised.
"That was incorrect. That figure covers all public sector expenditure in Scotland, including areas controlled by the UK Government and other public bodies.
"We apologise for that mistake on yesterday's programme."

But the damage is probably done given the majority of Scotland's newspapers (who are Tory owned) ran with the BBC story today and so screaming hysterically from the newstands today are headlines like- "13 billion- Scotland suffers higher debt than Zimbabwe" and "Scotland running deficit four times higher than UK"

This could all be seen as just a mistake by the BBC- if it wasn't for the fact they did exactly the same in 2016 and 2017 when they were called out for it, they apologised then but in a way no-one saw, it was a footnote in a news article on their website. So this is not a one-off accident, it's deliberate misrepresentation- just they didn't get away with it this time.}}}

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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by Bluebottle on Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:37 pm

Today is the anniversary of the 1-O referendum in Catalonia last year.

For memory:

https://twitter.com/miquelstrubell/status/1019154174154506240

https://twitter.com/JamieoJohnson/status/914534851902103553

For an uplift:

https://twitter.com/TYellows/status/1046403123953238016

https://twitter.com/agenciaacn/status/1046708900567945216

https://twitter.com/Bernat_Castro/status/1046671642485829637

Hundreds of thousands of students have striked today, and marched in the streets of Catalonia's four major cities, Lleida, Terragona, Girona and Barcelona.

https://twitter.com/QuicoSalles/status/1046728298536083456





https://twitter.com/elnacionalcat/status/1046721780449193985

https://twitter.com/redondoraquel/status/1046701711077900289

Todays phrase in Catalonia: "Ni oblit, ni perdon" (don't forget, don't forgive)

Note, the (new) Spanish government still has not appologised.

https://twitter.com/324cat/status/1046689933463867392

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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by Bluebottle on Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:39 pm


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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by halfwise on Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:27 pm

You just dumped a lot of material on us, Blue. Is there any summary beyond "what was happening before is just getting bigger"?

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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by Bluebottle on Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:22 am

This can be a good place to start:

https://www.elnacional.cat/interactius/cronologia-catalunya-1octubre/ca/index.html

I can try to write a quick overview for tomorrow. Smile

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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by halfwise on Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:32 am

Well I suppose it's not that much Spanish to translate.

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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by Eldy on Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:39 am

I don't think ironic is the word but the Catalan language being called Spanish in a thread about Catalan nationalism probably says something. Razz
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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by halfwise on Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:17 pm

Sort of like saying "Chinese" instead of "Han" or "Cantonese".

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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:09 pm

Any thoughts on this, Petty?- Blue

{{{ Disappointing but neither surprising nor unexpected.
UK Party Conferences were once places of fierce open debate, hotly contested fringe meetings, and the grass roots often holding the party elites feet to the fire.
But since the 80's they have become ever more slick, organised PR machines with everyone as much as possible on the same page publicly.
The Tory Conference just finished and given the splits in the party right now you'd think it would have been an uproarious affair- but bar Boris making a leadership pitch in the papers and sniping from the sidelines it wasn't- the event itself was as carefully orchestrated as ever.

With the SNP Sturgeon is trying to balance two opposing forces- the grass roots which want another vote as soon as possible and while poll seem to show a 50+% majority for it. But Sturgeons political instincts know it will be as long to get it through Westminster and even have another vote, a chance she wont get twice and the polls arent far enough in favour of Yes for a certainty and the uncertainty of what post-Brexit will be like is also a huge factor in her calculations not to want to squander her one chance right now. }}

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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by Bluebottle on Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:02 am


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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by Bluebottle on Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:47 am

Update on Catalonia.

Some background:

http://jaumelopez.cat/es/catalonia-and-the-right-to-self-determination-in-the-21st-century/

The criminal trial against Catalan politicians and civil society leaders (a real-life miscarriage of justice) will start on the 12th of February. The Spanish Supreme court, a highly politicised institution, is continually making procedural errors and undermining the right to defense, but here is a basic outline of the substanse of the case, by some of Spain's foremost criminal law academics:

«The Trivialization of the Crimes of Rebellion and Sedition»
«The undersigned, Professors of Law of Spanish Universities, once presented, by the Attorney General’s Office, the written Provisional Conclusions before the Supreme Court and the National High Court, we are obliged to express our legal opinion due to the historical significance for Spanish democracy of the criminal process that is going to take place.

The Public Prosecutor’s Office believes that certain conduct by members of the Mossos de Escuadra, the Catalan Parliament and Government, as well as the social leaders of the Catalan National Assembly and Òmnium Cultural, give rise to the crime of rebellion under article 472 of the Criminal Code. However, such a crime requires a public and violent uprising. In this regard, it should be noted that in our opinion it is an error to consider that the events that occurred on September 20 and October 1, 2017, are integrated into the concept of violence required by article 472 of the Penal Code.

In addition, the interpretation of the requirement of violence is separate from the doctrine that the Constitutional Court has established when analyzing the crime of rebellion. STC 198/1987, when constitutionally justifying the extension to the crime of rebellion of the exceptional penal and procedural measures provided for in article 55.2 of the Constitution to deal with the actions of armed gangs or terrorist elements, considers that in the parliamentary discussion of the aforementioned precept «... there is an explicit equation, in terms of attack on the democratic system and the substitution of the form of Government and State freely elected by the citizens, between terrorism and rebellion. It is true that art. 55.2 has not expressly mentioned rebels, but only armed gangs or terrorist elements ...», but ... «by definition, the rebellion is carried out by a group that has the purpose of illegitimate use of war weapons or explosives, with the purpose of producing the destruction or eversion of the constitutional order». And it concludes: «for that reason to such rebels as soon as they integrate the concept of armed band of the art. 55.2 CE, it is legitimately applicable to them the suspension of rights to which the constitutional precept enables».

Nor do we believe that the crime of sedition in article 544 of the Penal Code is present in this case, due to the fact that at no time has any indication been provided that the accused have induced, provoked or carried out any tumultuous uprising with the purpose of avoiding compliance with the law, unless it is interpreted that it is enough to incite the right to demonstrate, that is, the exercise of a fundamental right. It is not possible to attribute to the accused those individual behaviours that occurred before, after or by other different persons, since in Criminal Law the principle of objective responsibility does not apply, but rather the subjective responsibility for the facts themselves.

As for the crime of rebellion under art. 472 CP, the Public Prosecutor’s Office maintains that, from the beginning, the accused, with the final objective of achieving the independence of Catalonia and secession from the Central State, considered the use of violence. How they carried it out, he asks himself, and answers: through the tumultuous action of thousands of citizens, instigated by them, and the collaboration of the mossos. For the Public Prosecutor's Office, therefore, the danger lies in inciting mobilizations, that is, it makes the exercise of fundamental rights a crime.

In addition, we believe that the interpretation that has been made of the types of rebellion and sedition opens the door to the banalization of figures practically unheard of in democracy and with a past of sad memory, which is why the 1995 legislator restricted them to cases of a materiality that is clearly more harmful than the current one. The result of inadequate recourse to these figures is the one we are seeing, the demand for very long sentences, the consistency of which with the principle of proportionality — which must guide any legal interpretation - is highly questionable. Only by very seriously violating the principle of criminal legality can it be asserted that the accused, in view of the facts attributed to them, could have committed this crime, or that of conspiracy for rebellion, which requires a joint agreement to carry it out with the same violence.

However, the only thing the Public Prosecutor’s Office has so far demonstrated is that, with the same purpose, all the mobilizations carried out only sought a referendum through peaceful and democratic means. It is with this stubborn idea of shaping the existence of violence that the Prosecutor's Office focuses essentially on the events of 20 September, 1 and 3 October. Moreover, it goes so far as to say that the fact that the use of violence was not planned from the outset does not prevent them from considering that, after the events of those days, they adopted the decision to continue with the call, assuming the risk of the exercise of violent acts and other confrontations.

Neither the events of 20 September 2017 nor those of 1 or 3 October 2017 give rise to the violence required by Article 472 of the Penal Code.

On the other hand, as far as the crime of sedition is concerned, it should be remembered that it is systematically used (article 544) to repress and silence citizens' movements that peacefully practice the right to demonstrate, assemble and assemble.

In conclusion:

— In addition, one cannot forget the not minor question of the lack of competence of the National High Court that initiated the process vitiating the nullity of what was subsequently acted upon.

— From a strictly legal perspective (and without entering into political considerations), we call for respect for the principle of criminal legality and for them to investigate everything that the rule of law authorises and obliges, but exclusively that, because only within those margins can there be opportunity, proportion and justice.

— The first step that should be taken is the release of the nine persons who are being held on remand for non-existent offences.

Signed by:
Guillermo Portilla Contreras. Professor of Criminal Law. University of Jaén.
Nicolás García Rivas. Professor of Criminal Law at the University of Castilla-La Mancha.
María Luisa Maqueda Abreu. Professor of Criminal Law at the University of Granada.
José Ángel Brandariz García. Head of Criminal Law at the University of A Coruña.
Javier Mira Benavent. Head of Criminal Law at the University of Valencia.»

Translation by: Prof. Dr. Axel Schönberger, Goethe Universität - Frankfurt am Main
Original in castillian:
https://www.eldiario.es/tribunaabierta/banalizacion-delitos-rebelion-sedicion_6_838226207.html

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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:15 am

{{This turned up in yesterdays Daily Telegraph, sort of, by which I mean they published it as a major piece in the English edition, but mysteriously left it out their Scottish edition!


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/11/08/north-sea-oil-can-still-bargaining-chip-need/?fbclid=IwAR0QeuVI8p5Bu9rw3tyObjIMo9dHYDOLO7rqoOhzuP8wWZPTgjctgJ3ph4U


So just to be clear, Scotlands oil is of no use to an independent Scotland of 5 million people, would not be of any use to our economy and would not be sustainable.

But the same oil is enough to help save a Hard Brexit and secure a future for the UK, population OF 66 MILLION!

Ok Nicola, its time we were leaving! Nod  }}}

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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by azriel on Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:50 am

Desperation. These Hyenas are savaging for anything, absolutely anything. This is a generation of misery. Lie after Lie is banded about & sent out for the population to be manipulated by. Where I am politics is the subject on everyones lips & I see & hear the anger, resentment & hatred its churning gleefully up. There is something about the constitution of the British public that no one yet hasn't taken a pot shot at "Moray eel May" ? We seem to hold on & wait for a hero to save us. I cant help but feel those heros are not coming. We are in a pot of shit right up to our ears. It all smacks of desperation & cover ups, lies & corruption, tho that in its self is as old as time.

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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by Bluebottle on Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:58 am


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Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by Mrs Figg on Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:33 pm

yep its time May and her band of merry shysters were given a lesson. I didn't think it was a good idea before, I will admit, but now I support a Scottish Indiref2, because 3 years of Tory chaos lies and corruption. they deserve all they get, and if that means the breakup of UK, good!

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