FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Page 31 of 31 Previous  1 ... 17 ... 29, 30, 31

Go down

FREEDOM!!!! [4] - Page 31 Empty Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by Mrs Figg on Thu May 09, 2019 9:07 pm

As for being fed-up, I think politics has never been so interesting, its barking mad, but its certainly not boring.

_________________
Mrs Figg
Mrs Figg
Eel Wrangler from Bree

Posts : 22866
Join date : 2011-10-06
Age : 89
Location : Holding The Door

Back to top Go down

FREEDOM!!!! [4] - Page 31 Empty Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri May 10, 2019 5:09 am

{{ It's barking mad but it also creates huge amounts of uncertainty, and that makes getting an independence vote harder I'd say. People dont like uncertainty, they like what they know. And what they know is already being thrown up in the air, so adding more potential uncertainty to things is probably not going to help.

The SNP need to have everything ready to be answered and spelled out clearly. They cant get caught out on stuff like currency again for example (their previous policy was fine and would have worked fine, but allowed a door for Westminster to say they would not allow it - even though they couldn't actually legally do that- but it was enough to cause real concern for folk which was all the aim of it, as not knowing what currency we would have, if we have then to take up the euro etc was not good). }}

_________________
Pure Publications, The Tower of Lore and the Former Admin's Office are Reasonably Proud to Present-



A Green And Pleasant Land

Compiled and annotated by Eldorion.


- get your copy here for a limited period- free*

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yjYiz8nuL3LqJ-yP9crpDKu_BH-1LwJU/view



*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales
Pettytyrant101
Pettytyrant101
Crabbitmeister

Posts : 41503
Join date : 2011-02-14
Age : 47
Location : Scotshobbitland

Back to top Go down

FREEDOM!!!! [4] - Page 31 Empty Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by Bluebottle on Fri May 10, 2019 10:02 am

Agreed, although I'd say that is more an example of how common sense measrues were vilified by Project Fear. There are countries in the world that use the euro but are not in the euro-zone. There are countries in the world that use the dollar, but are certainly not part of the US. To dollarize is even a term in economics.

I'd also say that some of the work you mention has been done though:

https://www.newstatesman.com/2018/05/scotland-s-unionists-attack-snp-s-growth-commission-report-their-peril
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-C4Ngp_7a0&app=desktop

As the opposition is currently a dearth of real proposals, I'd say the Scottish people should look for the positive in finding solutions and projects for their country among themselves and that you are better off that way, especially all things considered. But then I would always say that.

_________________
“We're doomed,” he says, casually. “There's no question about that. But it's OK to be doomed because then you can just enjoy your life."
FREEDOM!!!! [4] - Page 31 Tumblr_msgi12FPjq1s8au6qo2_500
Bluebottle
Bluebottle
Concerned citizen

Posts : 9951
Join date : 2013-11-09
Age : 32

Back to top Go down

FREEDOM!!!! [4] - Page 31 Empty Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by Nagual on Fri May 10, 2019 12:00 pm

I say we Dollarise. I can just picture their faces in Westminster, as tourism to Scotland increases in magnatudes from the US.
Nagual
Nagual
Clue-finder

Posts : 162
Join date : 2012-11-27

Back to top Go down

FREEDOM!!!! [4] - Page 31 Empty Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by Nagual on Fri May 10, 2019 12:14 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{

The SNP need to have everything ready to be answered and spelled out clearly. They cant get caught out on stuff like currency again for example (their previous policy was fine and would have worked fine, but allowed a door for Westminster to say they would not allow it - even though they couldn't actually legally do that- but it was enough to cause real concern for folk which was all the aim of it, as not knowing what currency we would have, if we have then to take up the euro etc was not good). }}

The SNPs weakness is either having very little experience in dealing with the established status quo of Westminster or underestimating what Westminster will do to stop the SNP dead in their tracks. Since in general the masses get their news from tabloids or TV headlines, they will believe what they see. The SNP  not only have to win fights in Westminster but have to battle the media's portrayal of them, while at the same time not getting drawn into discussions on distraction based topics. I don't believe that the SNP have the political savvy to combat Westminster. Nor do I believe that they know how to control an interview so it can't be misconstrued by selective editing.

There is a certain perception from some people that the SNP are really just a bunch of nutty old folk, who love saying how great scotland is and wave flags all the time. Much in a way similar to many of us see America's obsession with flag waving, or the English doing it for the Queen et cetera. As Scot's we generally don't go in for that sort of thing. So when local SNP supporters set up a 'YES shop' littered with badly made info boards and propaganda, flags adorning the window. It kind looks lame, and like the SNP are a bunch muppets.  I'm not opposed to these 'YES shops' but it seems completely unorganised, with no centralisation, no information hub, no standardised window displays. It's these simple things, that would help lift the perception of the SNP.
Nagual
Nagual
Clue-finder

Posts : 162
Join date : 2012-11-27

Back to top Go down

FREEDOM!!!! [4] - Page 31 Empty Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by Nagual on Fri May 10, 2019 12:32 pm

Since it was mentioned earlier, this is my predictions regarding the money grab:

If the grab is allowed - (I suspect it will be challenged in court)

Once the hand over is complete ie the date that any funding in areas now in the control of Westminster, there will be 'transitional period' where we will be told that, yes some payments are lower than previously but as with all things, it all needs to be worked out properly.

The media will run with the SNPs incompetence in dealing with the handover.

The SNP has a choice. Bolster the payments with money it has control over, or not. If they bolster it means money from elsewhere is taken or they increase taxes. Not only that, many areas won't even know it's been bolstered as all they care about is that after the change they are still getting the same amount of cash and if they are getting the same amount of cash it must be because Westminster is giving it to them If they don't, the people will still blame the SNP for it, even though it's now controlled by Westminster.

With the media war on full attack, and as general public perception of the SNP declining Westminster will continue to strip Holywood of its powers, very quickly. They will essentially cripple Holyrood's governing abilities.

I would expect to see the ability to call referendums removed with expedience. Or more likely change the ways in which they can be called to make it legally impossible to call if Westminster doesn't want it.

Remember the 'transitional period' I mentioned above? You didn't think I'd forgotten about that? Well, I can guarantee that Westminster will. Much in the same way that the EU farming grants for Scotland were spent in England, so too will be the money no longer in Holyrood's control.

I may have forgot something, Petty might remember (hahaha aye right) though. Can't actually see the screen properly to check this, as a migraine has kicked in and have lovely ziggy lines dancing about. Smile
Nagual
Nagual
Clue-finder

Posts : 162
Join date : 2012-11-27

Back to top Go down

FREEDOM!!!! [4] - Page 31 Empty Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by Bluebottle on Sat May 11, 2019 12:35 am

Nagual wrote:
Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{

The SNP need to have everything ready to be answered and spelled out clearly. They cant get caught out on stuff like currency again for example (their previous policy was fine and would have worked fine, but allowed a door for Westminster to say they would not allow it - even though they couldn't actually legally do that- but it was enough to cause real concern for folk which was all the aim of it, as not knowing what currency we would have, if we have then to take up the euro etc was not good). }}

The SNPs weakness is either having very little experience in dealing with the established status quo of Westminster or underestimating what Westminster will do to stop the SNP dead in their tracks. Since in general the masses get their news from tabloids or TV headlines, they will believe what they see. The SNP  not only have to win fights in Westminster but have to battle the media's portrayal of them, while at the same time not getting drawn into discussions on distraction based topics. I don't believe that the SNP have the political savvy to combat Westminster. Nor do I believe that they know how to control an interview so it can't be misconstrued by selective editing.

There is a certain perception from some people that the SNP are really just a bunch of nutty old folk, who love saying how great scotland is and wave flags all the time. Much in a way similar to many of us see America's obsession with flag waving, or the English doing it for the Queen et cetera. As Scot's we generally don't go in for that sort of thing. So when local SNP supporters set up a 'YES shop' littered with badly made info boards and propaganda, flags adorning the window. It kind looks lame, and like the SNP are a bunch muppets.  I'm not opposed to these 'YES shops' but it seems completely unorganised, with no centralisation, no information hub, no standardised window displays. It's these simple things, that would help lift the perception of the SNP.

Ok, here's the thing. It is not about the SNP. It is about whether you want a country where you make your own decision, or whether you want to live in a compound nation, where you can be overruled on any point, NHS, EU membership etc., by 55m english people. Either Scottish people deal with the very real issues of Scotland, or they will be constantly distracted by matters that should not matter to them. By the UK meltdown, by brexit, by self-defeating austerity etc.

I'm norwegian, we have been there, we call our 600 years of danish rule the 600 year night, we only ultimately got a university in Oslo because the Danish were scared of a rebellion. When we first thought of independence after the napoleonic wars our best and brightest thought it was a good idea to declare independence and put the danish crown prince on the throne. It takes time to get out of such an extended imposed mindset. Norway was lucky, with timing, and with a close scrutiny of geopolitics. We picked our moment, we made it, and no one wants to go back to being de facto sweedish or danish. It is the same with Scotland. You need someone with the sense of timing, and geopolitical nouse. But once it is done, however it might feel now, afterwards, in an independent Scotland, no one will ever want to go back. It is a necessarily difficult moment of separation, with all it entails. But honestly Scotland cannot be itself, make its own decisions, know what it is, face its own peculiar issues, until its people embrace their chance to be free. To be itself, and themself.

Independence is not about breaking up old bonds, about separation, about destruction. It is about giving the world a new voice, the scottish voice. About giving the people of Scotland their own voice in the world. In all matters, for good and bad. And I for one can't wait to hear it.

_________________
“We're doomed,” he says, casually. “There's no question about that. But it's OK to be doomed because then you can just enjoy your life."
FREEDOM!!!! [4] - Page 31 Tumblr_msgi12FPjq1s8au6qo2_500
Bluebottle
Bluebottle
Concerned citizen

Posts : 9951
Join date : 2013-11-09
Age : 32

Back to top Go down

FREEDOM!!!! [4] - Page 31 Empty Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat May 11, 2019 1:22 am

{{ Of Nagual and I, surprisingly you may find I am the more optimistic of us about the chances of a future independent Scotland, and would wish one for all the reasons you just gave Blue.

However Naguals view is not that he would disagree with a word of your sentiment, but his crabbit meter is pointing to red when it comes to the chances of it happening, believing simply that Westminster will never allow such an outcome to happen for so long as Scotland is important as a resource and strategic base of operations. And that they will stoop to any level, lying, deceit, bribery, corruption, use of the secret service against political opponents, slander, you name it they will do it, to ensure independence never happens. }}

_________________
Pure Publications, The Tower of Lore and the Former Admin's Office are Reasonably Proud to Present-



A Green And Pleasant Land

Compiled and annotated by Eldorion.


- get your copy here for a limited period- free*

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yjYiz8nuL3LqJ-yP9crpDKu_BH-1LwJU/view



*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales
Pettytyrant101
Pettytyrant101
Crabbitmeister

Posts : 41503
Join date : 2011-02-14
Age : 47
Location : Scotshobbitland

Back to top Go down

FREEDOM!!!! [4] - Page 31 Empty Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by halfwise on Sat May 11, 2019 1:31 am

they have nothing to gain from granting independence. I'm not sure how Canada got loose.

_________________
Halfwise, son of Halfwit. Brother of Nitwit, son of Halfwit. Half brother of Figwit.
Then it gets complicated...
halfwise
halfwise
Quintessence of Burrahobbitry

Posts : 15222
Join date : 2012-02-01
Location : rustic broom closet in farthing of Manhattan

Back to top Go down

FREEDOM!!!! [4] - Page 31 Empty Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat May 11, 2019 7:30 am

{{ And a lot to lose - Scotland is the main training ground for the armed forces of all stripes, its the main NATO training area in the UK too. We have the UK nuclear fleet and all sorts of radar and listening posts dotted all over.
We have 3/4 of the UK fishing waters and 90% of the oil reserves. The bulk of the UK Hydro electric and most of the wind and wave energy, and we send huge amounts of water south to England who suffer regular drought periods in the summer.
We are innovators and among the leaders in Europe on green energy and various other science areas, and of course we have some of the worlds leading and largest tech companies (including Rockstar North home of the Grand Theft Auto series).
And that's before you get to the export industry in food and drink and tourism which makes up the backbone of our marketable goods.

England has much to lose if Scotland becomes independent, and not much, if anything to gain by it. }}

_________________
Pure Publications, The Tower of Lore and the Former Admin's Office are Reasonably Proud to Present-



A Green And Pleasant Land

Compiled and annotated by Eldorion.


- get your copy here for a limited period- free*

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yjYiz8nuL3LqJ-yP9crpDKu_BH-1LwJU/view



*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales
Pettytyrant101
Pettytyrant101
Crabbitmeister

Posts : 41503
Join date : 2011-02-14
Age : 47
Location : Scotshobbitland

Back to top Go down

FREEDOM!!!! [4] - Page 31 Empty Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by Mrs Figg on Sat May 11, 2019 9:21 pm

Nagual wrote:
I may have forgot something, Petty might remember (hahaha aye right) though. Can't actually see the screen properly to check this, as a migraine has kicked in and have lovely ziggy lines dancing about. Smile

I get those too, it starts with flashy bits which get bigger and ziggier until I cant read. Mad  I get them when I have been in a hot humid atmosphere, like Petty's kilt shed, I know he has to keep them in the garden away from naked flames.
I find that cold windy air helps to stop the ziggy lines. But theres lots of that in Scotland Thumbs Up

_________________
Mrs Figg
Mrs Figg
Eel Wrangler from Bree

Posts : 22866
Join date : 2011-10-06
Age : 89
Location : Holding The Door

Back to top Go down

FREEDOM!!!! [4] - Page 31 Empty Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun May 12, 2019 11:06 pm

{{ Former First Minister and Labour leader Henry Mcleish is proposing the Scottish Parliament goes fully PR for electing MSP's (at the moment its a quasi first past the post and list system.

Sounds good eh? More representation, more democracy.

Sadly no, this a a cheap ruse to prevent another Independence referendum taking place and an example of the sort of tactics we can expect from Unionist parties.

Bear in mind Labour set up the Scottish Parliament believing the current voting system would safeguard against any one party ever having a majority- specifically believing it would prevent the SNP ever having a majority and therefore being able to pass legislation for a referendum.
That failed when the SNP smashed the voting records and got a majority and got their vote through for the referendum as a result.

Now the Unionists want to stop that happening again - and this proposal to change to full PR is a way of doing so.

In McLeish's own words-

'what that would do in my view is give you a parliament that would never have an overall majority. That would be one box that I would gratefully tick.'

So how is that an underhand trick- well if no party can get a majority, and you only have 1 party standing for independence, then they can never get a majority to pass the legislation to hold a referendum.
You could have the position where the SNP get voted in over and over as overwhelmingly the largest party every time, but in such a system the Unionist parties, without ever having to win an election, would always be in the majority on voting down any referendum bill. It would make it all but impossible for it to happen again. No matter how the people voted. }}

_________________
Pure Publications, The Tower of Lore and the Former Admin's Office are Reasonably Proud to Present-



A Green And Pleasant Land

Compiled and annotated by Eldorion.


- get your copy here for a limited period- free*

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yjYiz8nuL3LqJ-yP9crpDKu_BH-1LwJU/view



*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales
Pettytyrant101
Pettytyrant101
Crabbitmeister

Posts : 41503
Join date : 2011-02-14
Age : 47
Location : Scotshobbitland

Back to top Go down

FREEDOM!!!! [4] - Page 31 Empty Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by halfwise on Sun May 12, 2019 11:26 pm

What's this PR system that would not allow a majority? How does that work?

_________________
Halfwise, son of Halfwit. Brother of Nitwit, son of Halfwit. Half brother of Figwit.
Then it gets complicated...
halfwise
halfwise
Quintessence of Burrahobbitry

Posts : 15222
Join date : 2012-02-01
Location : rustic broom closet in farthing of Manhattan

Back to top Go down

FREEDOM!!!! [4] - Page 31 Empty Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun May 12, 2019 11:48 pm

"You could have a PR system that could retain the constituencies, but possibly have two members but elected on a different basis what that would do in my view is give you a parliament that would never have an overall majority. "- Mcleish

{{Thats the full proposal as reported by BBC Scotland. No idea what this 'differnt basis' would be- it just seems a way of diluting the numbers for any one party, hence ensuring it unlikely anyoneparty would gain an overall majority. As legislation needs to be voted through the parliament, if the ruling party is a minority govenrment (as the SNP one currently is) then they require other parties to vote with them. At the moment they only need a handful of votes from independents or greens to back their position to have a majority in favour, as they just fell short of a majority last time.
This plan seems to be geared towards ensuring that collectively the Unionist parties combined will always be able to outvote the SNP, and that they wont have enough support to outvote the Unionist parties even with smaller parties when they are in power as the government. The SNP can table legislation for a referendum, they can stand at elections on having one, but it can be blocked every time under this proposal. }}

_________________
Pure Publications, The Tower of Lore and the Former Admin's Office are Reasonably Proud to Present-



A Green And Pleasant Land

Compiled and annotated by Eldorion.


- get your copy here for a limited period- free*

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yjYiz8nuL3LqJ-yP9crpDKu_BH-1LwJU/view



*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales
Pettytyrant101
Pettytyrant101
Crabbitmeister

Posts : 41503
Join date : 2011-02-14
Age : 47
Location : Scotshobbitland

Back to top Go down

FREEDOM!!!! [4] - Page 31 Empty Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by Nagual on Mon May 13, 2019 10:09 am

Bluebottle wrote:

Independence is not about breaking up old bonds, about separation, about destruction. It is about giving the world a new voice, the scottish voice. About giving the people of Scotland their own voice in the world. In all matters, for good and bad. And I for one can't wait to hear it.

100% agree. In an independent Scotland, I will happily vote for any party that I think has a good plan. Scottish Conservative, Scottish Labour or whatever they choose to call themselves currently only do what their Westminster bosses tell them and as such are not worth listening to (imho). In an Indi Scotland, that may change as they are free to stand on their own ideas.

I don't care if the SNP or Labour or Greens or Torys run an Indi Scotland. They would all be working for and in Scotland, it may not be a bed of roses but it's our bed, and we know where it is.

My personal view is the independence would drive forward trade in the north of England and in Scotland. We would see small to medium business doing well as they sought to fill various niches that appear. Westminster doesn't want that in case it moves it's base of voting power away from the SE.
Nagual
Nagual
Clue-finder

Posts : 162
Join date : 2012-11-27

Back to top Go down

FREEDOM!!!! [4] - Page 31 Empty Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by Bluebottle on Tue May 14, 2019 8:52 pm

Good, just playing the role of the anxious older sibling offering encouragement. Razz

_________________
“We're doomed,” he says, casually. “There's no question about that. But it's OK to be doomed because then you can just enjoy your life."
FREEDOM!!!! [4] - Page 31 Tumblr_msgi12FPjq1s8au6qo2_500
Bluebottle
Bluebottle
Concerned citizen

Posts : 9951
Join date : 2013-11-09
Age : 32

Back to top Go down

FREEDOM!!!! [4] - Page 31 Empty Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by Bluebottle on Tue May 14, 2019 9:11 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{ Of Nagual and I, surprisingly you may find I am the more optimistic of us about the chances of a future independent Scotland, and would wish one for all the reasons you just gave Blue.

However Naguals view is not that he would disagree with a word of your sentiment, but his crabbit meter is pointing to red when it comes to the chances of it happening, believing simply that Westminster will never allow such an outcome to happen for so long as Scotland is important as a resource and strategic base of operations. And that they will stoop to any level, lying, deceit, bribery, corruption, use of the secret service against political opponents, slander, you name it they will do it, to ensure independence never happens. }}

You might find this paper interesting, particularly from p. 68 onwards:

"State practice provides support for Catalonia’s referendum. A surprising number of sub-state entities have exercised the right to decide their political will by holding independence-related referenda. Between 1905 and 1991, 52 sub-state entities held independence-related referenda.In addition, since 1991, 53 independence-related referenda have been held, for a total of 105 independence-related referenda since 1905. There are four additional referenda scheduled to happen by the end of 2019. State practice demonstrates that many of these sub-state entities and national states negotiate the terms, conditions, and effects of independence referenda both before and after those referenda are held."
https://www.unige.ch/gsi/files/9315/0461/7440/CATALONIAS_LEGITIMATE_RIGHT_DECIDE.pdf

It is a strong scholarly report on the position Scotland would find itself in if caught between the "rock and the hard place" of english deaf ears and unilaterality written by a group of international law experts, including the director of the International Law and International Organization Department of the Law Faculty at the University of Geneva, at the second seat of the UN.

In reality, if the Scots stay firm, peaceful and democratic about their independence bid, there is little the UK can do to stop it but use force. And I don't think neither the Scottish people are prepared to accept that. Or that the UK government could allow itself the excesses of a country like Spain, whose deep state structure, including the courts are still mired in the 40 year fascist dictatorship of Franco and the failure to deal with this past in the flawed transition to democracy.

_________________
“We're doomed,” he says, casually. “There's no question about that. But it's OK to be doomed because then you can just enjoy your life."
FREEDOM!!!! [4] - Page 31 Tumblr_msgi12FPjq1s8au6qo2_500
Bluebottle
Bluebottle
Concerned citizen

Posts : 9951
Join date : 2013-11-09
Age : 32

Back to top Go down

FREEDOM!!!! [4] - Page 31 Empty Re: FREEDOM!!!! [4]

Post by halfwise on Tue May 14, 2019 9:48 pm

Oh no, so now Spain has a Deep State?

_________________
Halfwise, son of Halfwit. Brother of Nitwit, son of Halfwit. Half brother of Figwit.
Then it gets complicated...
halfwise
halfwise
Quintessence of Burrahobbitry

Posts : 15222
Join date : 2012-02-01
Location : rustic broom closet in farthing of Manhattan

Back to top Go down

Page 31 of 31 Previous  1 ... 17 ... 29, 30, 31

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum