The Scouring of the Shire: Should it have been in the Film?

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Post by Ally on Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:45 pm

Me too! Got to love the mix between drama and humour- especially in Pride & Prejudice!
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Post by Ringdrotten on Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:46 pm

Time to bring back the Girly girl thread it seems!

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Post by Kafria on Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:48 pm

now thats a good idea!

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:56 pm

Yes, nicely put Kafria. You will be a fine addition to the purist ranks- for a bit there we were getting snowed under with PJ loving views. Shocked

IMO if you fail to see the importance of the Scouring you have missed one of the major themes Tolkien was writing about- arguably the major themes of the book- inevitable change and inevitable death. And PJ demonstrably missed it.
If Tolkien had lived to see the films I am sure the lack of the Scouring would be one of the major annoyances for him.

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Post by Gandalf's Beard on Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:19 pm

Oh please, if The Scouring was so important to Tolkien he should have written the book better. Razz

You don't have a whole story tacked on to the end of the book after the climax. And Tolkien, with his invention of "Eucatastrophe" should have known better. But because it's in the book and one can read the book at one's own leisure, there is nothing wrong with him writing the book any way he pleased...even if it is anti-climactic. So I have no problem with it in the book.

But it sure as hell wasn't going to work in a film version.

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Post by Ringdrotten on Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:28 pm

Exactly Wink Although it is one of my favourite chapters in the book, it really wouldn't work on film. Not in PJ's version, and I'd like to see the version that made the Scouring work.

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Post by Kafria on Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:29 pm

But it isn't anticlimactic! It's putting the whole idea that these terrible events happen, people do the best they can and then life has to continue somehow. Yet no where is untouched, nowhere can just go back to how it was before. There is loss in a very real sense!
It is one of the things that makes this story stand out for me as seeming grounded in reality. Awful things happen in life and then they are over and somehow people have to deal with the aftermath and find a way to continue, even though things will never quite be the same. And with it being about the hobbits it feeds into this idea that these extraordinary things happen to normal people (Sams comments about people in the great tales show this theme). It is not possible to truely complete the story without it! You miss soooo much otherwise! Evil or Very Mad

(And I thought I was probably a liberal when I joined up! Embarassed )

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:37 pm

Spot on. The entire emotional impact is lost without the Scouring. Its like a sitcom where at the end everything is reset to what it was at the beginning. Tolkien went to war and came home- and neither he nor home was ever the same again. He knew that more than most, his whole generation did. To miss it out is a disgrace.

I think Kafria its safe to say you are not a liberal! (Your posts don't set off alarms on my crabbit meter) Besides Odo and I can can spot them a mile off, even clever ones like young Eldo! Wink
Although Odo may be a bit infatuated to judge from his earlier post- they're very emotional and sometimes a tad..rash, the Bankses. Wonder if there's a touch of Took in their make-up?

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Post by Ringdrotten on Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:40 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote: Wonder if there's a touch of Took in their make-up?

I'd say the Tooks have a touch of Banks in theirs is more likely Smile

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Post by odo banks on Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:46 pm

It might disturb you to know, but your views so far on TH and LOTR are excatly those I hold, Kafria. I see this last commentary of yours as being neither Pure nor Impure, just accurate. It's like you actually "get" Tolkien! Shocked Without the Scouring the story would stopped dead in the middle of nowhere - the Ring's destruction was climactic, but no place to end a tale. It was the same in TH. You hit the nail on the head. Life goes on after great (and evil?) events, perhaps awkward, perhaps still dangerous, and sadder (like growing up is). A great film maker can make these things relevant and extremely watchable!

As to you, Mr Tyrant, I know I can always rely on your Pure insights (on TH and LOTR).

You know, this might become a Sensible Forum yet! Very Happy

As to you Ringdrotten - hmmmmm....



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Post by Gandalf's Beard on Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:49 pm

I'm hard pressed to find any lack of "emotional Impact" Petty. The ending in Jackson's version has emotional impact enough. It shows that Frodo has changed even if the Shire hadn't.

Tolkien should have added sections throughout the Book that showed the war coming to the Shire, perhaps even killing off the Gaffer and (hopefully) the Sackville Bagginses, then the Scouring wouldn't have been out of place at all.

It seems to me that PJ recognized the problem with that and knew there was no way to make it work in the film without actually taking MORE time to add in scenes of the Shire being invaded and occupied.

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Post by odo banks on Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:52 pm

Pure bumkum, GB --- rubbish!
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Post by Ringdrotten on Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:54 pm

Gandalf's Beard wrote:perhaps even killing off the Gaffer and (hopefully) the Sackville Bagginses, then the Scouring wouldn't have been out of place at all.

GB

I've been labeled Liberalist and I do agree with you on practically everything Tolkien, but even I have limits! Killing Gaffer? Shocked

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Post by Kafria on Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:56 pm

No no no no no!
The whole point is that you don't get to see it happening before. There is this kind of conceit the hobbits have that they will have the shire to go back to - in the same way anyone who moves away from home has. The point of the scouring coming without warning is to bounce off that idea. The four heros return home expecting nothing to have changed (and also possibly to be thought of as heros) to find things have changed and the immediate events are all anyones worried about!

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Post by Kafria on Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:57 pm

Embarassed i don't know whats the matter with me, I'm not this het up normally! Very Happy

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:59 pm

Perhaps if he'd thought to have included Sam in the Mirror of Galadriel scene and had him look into the mirror we would not only have got the set up for Scouring (which would have been further emphasized by doing Saruman's character properly) but also one of my favourite Sam lines "They've dug up Bagshot Row and there's the poor old gaffer going down the Hill with his bits of things in a barrow. I must go home!'


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Post by Gandalf's Beard on Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:01 pm

Kafria wrote:No no no no no!
The whole point is that you don't get to see it happening before. There is this kind of conceit the hobbits have that they will have the shire to go back to - in the same way anyone who moves away from home has. The point of the scouring coming without warning is to bounce off that idea. The four heros return home expecting nothing to have changed (and also possibly to be thought of as heros) to find things have changed and the immediate events are all anyones worried about!

There is a valid point there, but then you are still stuck with the problem of it being anti-climactic. You can do it one way or the other, but you have to sacrifice plot pacing to do it on film.

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Post by odo banks on Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:03 pm

Kafria, you have every cause to be het up, dear Lady - EVERY reason. Perhaps you now understand why Mr Tyrant is always so crabbity and I am so stern! Mad

GB - that is utter rubbish! Yes, I repeat myself - and will again if I have to. Rolling Eyes
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Post by Gandalf's Beard on Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:08 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Perhaps if he'd thought to have included Sam in the Mirror of Galadriel scene and had him look into the mirror we would not only have got the set up for Scouring (which would have been further emphasized by doing Saruman's character properly) but also one of my favourite Sam lines "They've dug up Bagshot Row and there's the poor old gaffer going down the Hill with his bits of things in a barrow. I must go home!'


Apologize for nothing Kafria. Its simply that a pure heart beats within. Don't let the liberals sway you! Wink

Giving it further thought, the scene wouldn't need Sam at all actually. For a set-up, all PJ would have had to do was give Galadriel a line that this was presently happening in the Shire, rather than a future potential, and stating that the only way to save the Shire was to destroy the Ring then go back and kick some Arse. In which case he could have filmed The Scouring and we could all be happy. In which case I am forced to concur that Jackson did have a way to make it work had he thought of that.


GB

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:11 pm

It would have been perfectly possible to put Scouring in without throwing pacing if it had been done properly. Instead of wasting everyone's time with Merry and Pippin stealing fireworks and the like they could have used it for character development and introduced Otho and mention of his weed plantations and sudden increased wealth.
Instead of just putting a barrel of pipeweed in the Isengard scenes with Merry and Pippin as a 'nice touch' they could have had it as part of evidence (as it is in the book) of trade with someone in the Shire.
Add in the Mirror sequence as it is in the book with Sam, and the Scouring would have been perfectly paced to finish the film.

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Post by Kafria on Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:14 pm

Gandalf's Beard wrote:
Giving it further thought, the scene wouldn't need Sam at all actually. For a set-up, all PJ would have had to do was give Galadriel a line that this was presently happening in the Shire, rather than a future potential, and stating that the only way to save the Shire was to destroy the Ring then go back and kick some Arse. In which case he could have filmed The Scouring and we could all be happy. In which case I am forced to concur that Jackson did have a way to make it work had he thought of that.


GB

My biggest disapointment in ROTK was my original reading of this scene was that the scouring had been set up. I was so pleased and then to get to the end of the third movie and find it not even alluded to by some evidence of destruction, despite all the other end bits he had included! heartbreaking pale

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Post by Gandalf's Beard on Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:16 pm

Petty, You should just be happy that you've finally come up with a convincing argument and turned me around on this one. Razz Rolling Eyes

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Post by odo banks on Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:20 pm

Turned around, GB? Mmmmm...

GB, Sam saw what "might" happen in the Mirror. The Mirror was tricksey. You know, even in the movie a climactic battle is allowed for near the end, more fiery than in the book, but notwithstanding, still a possibility set up by PJ himself. It would have made just as much sense in PJ as in the book. A hobbit battle against men? Boring? Unneccessary in the context of the story? I think not, not even by PJ's standards.


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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:22 pm

I was obviously suffering from shock! I didn't even register I had won!!!!! Shocked

I don't know whether to celebrate or mourn the fact you weakened so soon and so easily.
Wink

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Post by Gandalf's Beard on Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:26 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I was obviously suffering from shock! I didn't even register I had won!!!!! Shocked

I don't know whether to celebrate or mourn the fact you weakened so soon and so easily.
Wink

Not really, you tried to crack me on this one plenty of times in the old forum. My hat's off to you sir for finally bringing me around. Let it not be said that I cannot be swayed by reason if it's reasonable. Wink

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