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Post by malickfan on Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:21 pm

halfwise wrote:
malickfan wrote:Going off on a tangent...whilst the OT remain classic films, I couldn't help but notice something when I recently rewatched Empire
Nitpicking geekery... :
...The Space Slug scene...a memorable scene in the film no doubt, but rather mind boggingly stupid one at points, I know it's a movie, but even so I was left  scratch as to how I didn't notice this earlier:

1) The likelihood of asteroids forming a huge field like that seems...remote

2) How does a animal that size survive/evolve in the vaccum of space, with no oxgen or apparent food supply? (that goes for the creatures that inhabit it as well) The creature has teeth so it seems it feeds on other animals...

3) Since there is no vaccum in space, why do Han and co decide to explore the cave without putting on spacesuits first?

'You know we are supposed to be laying low not making any sound? Well why don't we explore this odd cave and kill the local wildlife! that will be quiet!'

(we see the falcon travel down the 'cave' so it's clear its exposed to space) Wouldn't the decompression kill them? and wouldn't the creature have dried out or frozen?

4) They leave the frigging ramp door open to Falcon letting all the air out and exposing the ship to space...again explosive decompression?

As I said, it's probably nitpicking (in a film about talking robots, gaint space battles and a weird mumbo jumbo mystical 'force' you can't really take the science that seriously anyway), but I feel a little stupid for not realizing this earlier...



If you're gonna start criticizing Star Wars on physical plausibility we may as well all go back on vacation.  rabbit

Laughing Yeah, that's probably true, I was just annoyed that I had never noticed it before!

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I think what comes out of a pig's rear end is more akin to what Peejers has given us-Azriel 20/9/2014
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Post by malickfan on Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:22 pm

David H wrote:
malickfan wrote:I try and stay out of arguments here.

i try to restrict my arguments to colours

Or about geoducks No

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I think what comes out of a pig's rear end is more akin to what Peejers has given us-Azriel 20/9/2014
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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:24 pm

Off the cuff fan invention to solve your issues Malick-


1) The likelihood of asteroids forming a huge field like that seems...remote

Easy one to start with, planetary body collision- this will prove handy in a moment.

2) How does a animal that size survive/evolve in the vaccum of space, with no oxygen or apparent food supply? (that goes for the creatures that inhabit it as well) The creature has teeth so it seems it feeds on other animals...

Its a survivor from the collision- originated on a planet, lived exceptionally deep under the sea and feeds like many sea creatures by living in a fixed place waiting for food to float past. Its food supply- the flying things and maybe some stuff we don't see- also survive inside the ecosystem of the interior planetary chunk. Oh and its cells are quite to mutate henc eit adapting form deep sea to deep space.

3) Since there is no vaccum in space, why do Han and co decide to explore the cave without putting on spacesuits first?

Because there is a self sustaining micro-ecosystem in the heart of the asteroid. They also mention how hot it is which it could not be without an atmosphere of some sort.

4) They leave the frigging ramp door open to Falcon letting all the air out and exposing the ship to space...again explosive decompression?

No problem if the exterior has a micro-climate- assuming the ship has interior pressure doors or force field only the entrance area would be exposed to the exterior.



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Post by malickfan on Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:33 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Off the cuff fan invention to solve your issues Malick-


1) The likelihood of asteroids forming a huge field like that seems...remote

Easy one to start with, planetary body collision- this will prove handy in a moment.

2) How does a animal that size survive/evolve in the vaccum of space, with no oxygen or apparent food supply? (that goes for the creatures that inhabit it as well) The creature has teeth so it seems it feeds on other animals...

Its a survivor from the collision- originated on a planet, lived exceptionally deep under the sea  and feeds like many sea creatures by living in a fixed place waiting for food to float past. Its food supply- the flying things and maybe some stuff we don't see- also survive inside the ecosystem of the interior planetary chunk. Oh and its cells are quite to mutate henc eit adapting form deep sea to deep space.

3) Since there is no vaccum in space, why do Han and co decide to explore the cave without putting on spacesuits first?

Because there is a self sustaining micro-ecosystem in the heart of the asteroid. They also mention how hot it is which it could not be without an atmosphere of some sort.

4) They leave the frigging ramp door open to Falcon letting all the air out and exposing the ship to space...again explosive decompression?

No problem if the exterior has a micro-climate- assuming the ship has interior pressure doors or force field only the entrance area would be exposed to the exterior.



Hmm...those are plausible explanations I suppose...headcanon partially accepted...

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I think what comes out of a pig's rear end is more akin to what Peejers has given us-Azriel 20/9/2014
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Post by David H on Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:35 pm

malickfan wrote:
Or about geoducks No


Funny you should mention that Malick, because I happen to believe that the Space Slug is in fact a giant Space Geoduck, Very Happy

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Jan 06, 2016 12:28 am

The geoduck still looks more alien than the alien Mad

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Post by Mrs Figg on Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:32 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:sometimes you bring out my stinging tail, don't know why but you do. -Figg

I would have thought that was obvious- its because I'm a stubborn, entrenched crabbit old bastard. Nod

I say we put this one behind us and knock it up to the possibility we may have aged but not necessarily gained wisdom! (I assume I will find it one day at the bottom of a  buckie bottle, no luck so far but I am determined to keep looking drunken )

I cant really criticise you for being stubborn, entrenched or crabbit. because so am I. So I will promise not to go over to the Snark Side if you will try to concede the odd point to people when they put forward good points. (just one every leap year will do silent ) I don't mind arguing about grass as long as you can concede that you don't have the monopoly on the correct length. Evil or Very Mad

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:52 pm

I don't mind arguing about grass as long as you can concede that you don't have the monopoly on the correct length.- Figg

Ah well Figg, I don't claim every to know the exact length it should be, what I do know is the length it should not be- the length it is in the bloody film!

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Post by Mrs Figg on Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:20 pm

Suspect

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Post by azriel on Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:53 am

Laughing

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Post by Eldorion on Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:30 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:I have a very high opinion of you, you doofus. I must confess I wrote that deliberately knowing it would piss you off, which was horrible of me, but sometimes you bring out my stinging tail, don't know why but you do. maybe its me, I do have Scorpio ascendant. maybe I need to grow up. whatever. like that's ever going to happen.

All this needs is for Petty to take Figgs into his arms and for them to kiss and it's basically the ending of a romantic comedy where the third act disagreement is resolved. Sad I love you
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Post by Eldorion on Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:33 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Its a survivor from the collision- originated on a planet, lived exceptionally deep under the sea  and feeds like many sea creatures by living in a fixed place waiting for food to float past. Its food supply- the flying things and maybe some stuff we don't see- also survive inside the ecosystem of the interior planetary chunk. Oh and its cells are quite to mutate henc eit adapting form deep sea to deep space.

This is all interesting, but I'm wondering why this is okay but speculating about Rey's motivation for living like a bum is off limits? Razz
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Post by Eldorion on Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:35 pm

bungobaggins wrote:Going to quote myself here. This is a very good, brief, article. I've definitely been feeling the sentiment that the author describes of starting to appreciate what Lucas did now that TFA has made me, and I'm sure a lot of other people, go back to the original movies (even the prequels for some). I think my animosity for the changes to the original trilogy is lightening a little. However, the changes I'll never get over are Vader's "NOOO!" in ROTJ and changing Boba Fett's voice in ESB. I've pretty much gotten over everything else. We can sit here and criticize Lucas (and JJ) but he's given us this amazing galaxy far far away. Maybe some day I'll go back to the prequels, but I think it's too early for that now.

I'm planning on rewatching the Original Trilogy but wasn't sure whether to watch the '04 DVD versions or the inferior-image quality original versions from the Limited Edition. I think your post has convinced me to give the Special Editions another whirl.

I agree that it's good that Lucas is getting some positive attention for once. Nod
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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:41 pm

I'm wondering why this is okay but speculating about Rey's motivation for living like a bum is off limits? - Eldo

Becuase I wouldnever submit that as part of a debate on why that scene is ok- its a bit oif fun off the cuff invention, not a debating point. It obviously as it stands in the film makes no sense at all.

I would however argue that much like Doctor Who its not very relevant as both are as much fantasy films as they are sci-fi. Whatever the external trappings.

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Post by David H on Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:01 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:

Becuase I wouldnever submit that as part of a debate on why that scene is ok- its a bit oif fun off the cuff invention, not a debating point.

{{ Good old Petty! Always able to find a debate in the middle of a discussion! Nod }}

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Post by Eldorion on Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:42 am

{{{Petty clearly has a much better sense of the ins and outs of the Official Forumshire Rules of Engagement in Debate than I do. Suspect Particularly when it comes to those grey areas...}}}
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Post by chris63 on Fri Jan 08, 2016 7:14 am

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Post by Lancebloke on Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:35 am

OK... so I read from Petty's review of the first 20 mins up to the sexist argument and skipped from there so may have missed some important points.... but....!

Petty - some general observations you make seem to contradict. You complain that there are too many similarities with ANH yet when there is a difference in the way they try to tell other bits you moan!

For my 2 pennies (while I am spending a penny at work) I agree that the major plot points in TFA are too similar to ANH and I said so in my review. Starkiller base in particular seems very contrived and served no purpose other than to be blown up in glorious technicolor.

On the other hand, I feel the characterisation was done well in general. In particular I think Rey is so elusive because there are going to be revelations about her character in the future.

Re Finn, I can completely see how he got to where he did. The only agreement I would have is that his buddies seemed to not notice him having a meltdown. Phasmaand Ren did however and that could be explained by training to carry out orders without question versus the overlords watching the bigger picture. Finn is the proverbial 'ghost in the machine' here.

Will add more when I need a bigger poo.
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Post by Ringdrotten on Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:12 am

The female stormtrooper captain reminded me of this Laughing


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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Jan 08, 2016 12:07 pm

yet when there is a difference in the way they try to tell other bits you moan! - Lance

My complaint is not that they made differences Lance, but that as is beggars comparison to the original the differences they make feel shallow, contrived, plot motivated not character motivated and to be of a poorer writing quality than the original choices they have diverged from.

If they are going to make changes they at least still need to be on a character and writing par with the film they are ripping off/honouring, not worse.

'I think Rey is so elusive because there are going to be revelations about her character in the future.'

That may be true- but it means nonetheless that when we meet he rin this she comes across as sketchily drawn and not terribly well thought out. The abilities and personality she has all seem to be there because she will need them in the plot later, and in very obvious ways -like her ability to be able to pilot a ship like the Falcon- Lukes excuse was not great either for being able to hop into an xwing and fly it right off, but at least there was an excuse and one which tied into his personality and character as it was when we met him- he flew for kicks because his life was boring- someone has clearly at least thought about the problem and addressed it in the scripting. They didn't bother with any of that sort of thing in the new one. Or her liking, empathy and compassion for droids, which seems to exist only because the plot needs her to keep the droid.
If you compare how Rey ends up with a droid to how Luke ends up with his its clear the first was at pains to make it seem an organic series of events leading up to that, and at pains to give Luke motivation for having the droids and for going out after R2- he has a personal stake in it he needs those droids to take up the slack on the farm so he can get out of there.
Rey is just randomly nice to a droid she randomly stumbles across in the middle of the desert and lets randomly follow her home.

The care to make an organic plot is just not there- characters and events in the new film only seem to happen because thats the plot, so they happen.

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Post by Lancebloke on Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:02 pm

The randomness of the meeting in the desert could come off as contrived but the fact she is nice? Are people not allowed to just be nice? She has seen how other people play her and how shitty life can be.. maybe she thought she would give it a break.

I don't think her character is badly scripted... yet. It is just different to what you have seen with Luke. That isn't bad. It may turn out to be bad if it is never explained but it's OK for now.
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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:19 pm

The problem I would say is we the viewer are never given any reason for why she does things other than its the plot so she does them.
She is nice to a droid, but not without a cost, she turns down a lot of food for it when she is clearly only just scraping by on food on a daily basis- that's a big deal to turn down for a droid you just randomly met a couple of hours ago and have no use or plans for (she tries to shoo it away when it initially follows her- so why is it suddenly worth sacrificing all that much needed food for?). So yeah its fine she chooses to be nice to it and all that, but the viewer has no idea why, whats motivating her to be nice to a random droid? Why is she willing to turn down something beneficial to herself for it? We get no clues other than she is nice and the plot needs to keep them together.

In fact I struggle to see what the scene where she is offered the food is doing in there. I mean if you take it out nothing changes at all. Its only purpose seems to be to say to the audience' look how nice she is to the poor little droid' and to keep them together for plot purposes.

With Luke we know exactly whats motivating him in going after R2. We know what his hopes and fears are so when Obi offers the chance to leave we know what that means to him- and so when he turns it down it has an impact and informs you about the character of Luke.

Rey turning down something she wants- food- after all that's what she is out every day seemingly scavenging in order to acquire- tells us nothing about her because she turns it down and we have no idea why other than the assumption she is just very nice to random droids she meets (and its not like the dealer guy was shown to be going to do anything bad to the droid so why not sell it on to another owner- its a droid).

In comparison its just not as good writing.


Last edited by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:39 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post by halfwise on Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:51 pm

Ringdrotten wrote:The female stormtrooper captain reminded me of this Laughing



Someone put in a lot of effort and money for this! Laughing I think next time I'm feeling stupid with women this will cheer me up.

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Post by Lancebloke on Fri Jan 08, 2016 4:08 pm

Why did the sith want to destroy the Jedi - it was the plot so they just did.

Why didn't Vader have an issue with the Emperor wanting to replace him with a new apprentice - it was the plot so he just didn't.

Why did Obi-wan happen to be in the general vicinity of where Luke happened to get attacked and then randomly help him - it was the plot so he just did.

You can't have everyone's thoughts, feelings, experiences, hopes, dreams and all summed up that quickly all the time. Luke trusted some random man and a droid very quickly... so much that he forgets his family being massacred incredibly quickly. Where we the 'this is for for uncle Owen' when he was shooting those stormtroopers?

Rey is a lot more complicated in my opinion (same as Ren compared to Vader). She has been living as best she thinks, on her own with very little guidance and waiting for her family to come back... that is all she holds on to and therefore she stays where she thinks is best and deals with what she knows. She gives a druid the benefit because she saw someone try and take it and felt responsible a little... she could defend herself but it couldn't. She then felt guilty when she knew the droid had a mission and she didn't want to give it up.

Not sure what is difficult to understand or why that is bad writing. There is some shitty writing in the film, but that isn't it.
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Post by Lancebloke on Fri Jan 08, 2016 4:11 pm

To add.. I would go as far as to say the writing in TFA seems more like they have a bugger plan... ANH seems like an idea but no real plan which is why there end up being all sorts of longer term story issues.
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