UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

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Re: UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:47 pm

what utter despicable cowards, how dare that woman delay the vote.

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Re: UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:15 am

{{Well seems May's gamble to delay the vote has resulted in a no confidence vote from her own party in her- the 48 letters are in and later today she will face the vote- she loses then she is out and the Tory's elect a new leader, she wins then not only does she stay they cant touch her for another year.

As I said before I dont see how it changes anything even if she goes- we are more likely to get a hard Brexit voice in her place, and if we do they wont be able to get a hard brexit vote through any more than May could her plan, and if a stronger remainer than May gets in, well that will split the Tories in half I reckon.

Interesting day ahead!


edit add- should have the result of the vote about 9pm GMT}}}

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Re: UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

Post by Mrs Figg on Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:03 pm

after what this grotesque shower has done to the UK they are finished. if there is any justice.
The only hope is Keir Starmer taking control of the Labour party and their faffing about. before its too late.

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Re: UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:46 pm

{{So May survived as I suspected she would- what was of more interest is how many of her own party would vote against her- that turned out to be just over 100 of them- more than double the amount that was needed to call the leadership challenge. So there is no doubt she has been damaged by this happening at all.
It is also clear on those numbers in her own party not supporting her there is no way to get her Brexit plan as is through the House- there is simply not the votes to pass it.
In effect this has changed nothing- the same stalemate exists her plan is DOA, all this vote has really done is give as better idea of by how many it will fail by and how much ground she will need to make up to get a bill passed.}}

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Re: UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:49 pm

{{Well this is classic Westminster and how they treat the Scottish parliament.

Bit of background- while back the Scottish Parliament passed a Brexit Bill of its own-

'The Bill - known as the "continuity bill" - was passed with only the Conservatives and a single Lib Dem MSP voting against it.
It was drafted as an alternative to Westminster's EU Withdrawal Bill, which MSPs refused to give their consent to following a row over how powers currently exercised from Brussels will be used after Brexit.'

Now Westminster challenged this bill on the basis it was 'outside the competency of the Scottish Parliament' and it has finally got to the Supreme Court. This is where it gets interesting, and dodgy.

The verdict was -

'The judges said the bill "as a whole" was within Holyrood's competence, but that MSPs had acted outwith their powers in relation to one section.'

And the one section is where the dodgy is- you see the one section, that section said MSP's had to give their consent to any Brexit bill passed at Westminster.

That was the bit the government didn't like at all.

So it being struck down has been hailed by the Scottish Secretary as providing-

 '"much needed legal clarity" that the bill "goes beyond the powers of the Scottish Parliament"..."This demonstrates clearly that it was the right thing for the UK government to refer the bill to the court.
"It is now for the Scottish government to consider how to proceed, and we hope Holyrood will take a pragmatic approach and work constructively with us as we leave the EU."

Problem is, that bit wasn't beyond the competency of the Scottish Parliament when they passed it. The government changed the law after the bill had passed-

'Lady Hale said the judges had unanimously rejected many of the UK government's arguments...she pointed out that the UK government had subsequently made changes to its legislation which add it to a protected schedule of the Scotland Act, meaning it cannot be altered by MSPs.
This means the bill was largely competent when it was passed by MSPs in March - but that a number of sections now could not stand.'

The Scottish Government response is-

'Scottish Brexit Secretary Mike Russell said the UK government had "changed the rules of the game midway through the match" in an "act of constitutional vandalism".'

Yup, that about sums it up- they changed the law after the bill had been passed in order to make the bit they didn't want illegal! Mad Better Together! Equal Partners! Fuck Me! Evil or Very Mad }}

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Re: UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

Post by Mrs Figg on Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:54 pm

but what are the ramifications?

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Re: UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:28 am

{{Effectively that it curbs the powers of all the devolved administrations within the UK to take decisions reflecting the wishes of their people- if its on the Westminster list of things we aren't allowed a say in. And if its not on the list, but the government at Westminster don't like it, they can just change the law so it is added to the list.

We had a say in this when the Scottish Parliament drafted and passed the bill, but we didn't by the time the UK government took it to court because they passed legislation to add it to the banned list after the Scottish Parliament drafted and passed it, but before it reached the Supreme Court. And now that's the law, so we won't get our say in our parliament on the Brexit deal- whatever Westminster passes now basically all the devolved admin have to just accept it without debate, or vote or amendments.

There is little point in having devolved administrations if Parliament can simply change the laws to make anything they do it doesn't like illegal. It undermines utterly the trust that is required between devolved administrations and Parliament, which is why lawyers representing the Northern Ireland assembly and the Welsh Parliament were also present to back the Scottish Parliament position. This is a serious legal undermining of devolution as a principle. And it has not gone unnoticed by all three devolved administrations.}}

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Re: UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:33 am

{{{ The farce that is May's Brexit rumbles slowly on to its demise.
The EU sent her home empty- handed after she failed to convince them changing anything would actually help in any real way.

So most May has to offer her rebellious MP's is some vague promises of intent- I don't see that changing the Parliamentary arithmetic anytime soon.
She is saying she will bring the bill back to the house for the vote in January- but honestly hard to see what is likely to change inbetween now and then and seems a waste of time, and cowardice, to not put it to the vote sooner. }}

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Re: UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

Post by Mrs Figg on Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:59 pm

Its very embarrassing to be English at the moment. Suspect

so the deal will fail, what the hell will happen next. They are talking about military officers planning for chaos. I have an idea people will be buying yellow high-viz jackets soon. Better stock up before they sell out.

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Re: UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:25 am

{{ I think May is trying to pull a rather devious move. I think she is now just trying to just delay the vote as late as possibly, she is already talking January, my bet is it wont be early January either. I reckon her plan is to push it as close to the leave date as possible, minimising the time Parliament will have to do anything else. Meaning they will be left with only two choices- no deal or her deal.
As there is only a small vocal minority of MP's in the House actually advocating no deal I think she is gambling her deal will pass as the lesser of two evils. }}

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Re: UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

Post by Mrs Figg on Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:36 am

I think its obvious to everyone what she is doing, and what still blows my mind is the fact even in the face of overwhelming evidence, she is ploughing on regardless in the teeth of reality. what kind of person does that. Its gone way past determination and 'duty' because the brexit deal is obviously dead. what kind of leader does that? its the kind of leader who has dictatatorial tendencies, never listens, wants to win at any cost, thinks they have a god-given mandate, and hurts the populace in the process. its barking mad. and the terrible thing is Parliament cant seem to stop her.

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Re: UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:06 pm

{{ I think  this is why she went tonto on Blair for so publicly advocating another referendum (is going tonto a racist phrase now? Bugger it probably is!) another referendum is the biggest threat to her 'dont the give them any other choice but mine' plan. }}

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Re: UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

Post by Bluebottle on Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:38 pm

Also recall the Court of Justice jugdment.

Bluebottle wrote:Important development from the Court of Justice of the European Union. The UK can withdraw art. 50 unilaterally until a withdrawal agreement is concluded or the (extendable) two year period after notification has expired.

https://www.europeansources.info/record/case-c-621-18-wightman-and-others-v-secretary-of-state-for-exiting-the-european-union/

"[T]he answer to the question referred is that Article 50 TEU must be interpreted as meaning that, where a Member State has notified the European Council, in accordance with that article, of its intention to withdraw from the European Union, that article allows that Member State — for as long as a withdrawal agreement concluded between that Member State and the European Union has not entered into force or, if no such agreement has been concluded, for as long as the two-year period laid down in Article 50(3) TEU, possibly extended in accordance with that paragraph, has not expired — to revoke that notification unilaterally, in an unequivocal and unconditional manner, by a notice addressed to the European Council in writing, after the Member State concerned has taken the revocation decision in accordance with its constitutional requirements. The purpose of that revocation is to confirm the EU membership of the Member State concerned under terms that are unchanged as regards its status as a Member State, and that revocation brings the withdrawal procedure to an end."
http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?text=&docid=208636&pageIndex=0&doclang=EN&mode=req&dir=&occ=first&part=1&cid=1178994

Any new UK government can now unilaterally withdraw the art. 50 notice, and restart negotiations and serve another notice at the time it sees fit. The thought that May might be stalling, to avoid any chance of a new government or a general election before March is an interesting one.

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Re: UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:22 am

she is denying Parliament sovereignty and yet has the brass cohones to call Blair a threat to democracy.

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Re: UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:47 am

{{ Labour is the problem right now mind you. For there to be any chance of another referendum Labour have to back one, and they arent. And the reason they aren't is that a large slice of their traditional working class vote in England and Wales voted for Brexit. And Labours game plan at the moment is to force a general election through a vote of no confidence in the govenrment. They therefore dont wish to risk losing any potential votes first.

They seem to be following a plan of frustrate whatever deal May gets and refuse to vote for it in the hope enough on her own benches won't vote for it either, defeating the bill and then allowing Labour to table a motion of no confidence when the govenrment is at its weakest and Tory rebels their most emboldened. This is why they are so strongly urging May to have the vote this week or next week not in January.

So forgetting the content of the Brexit deal, and the EU side of things, or the arguments about in or out the politics alone are currently-

May wants to delay the vote as late as possible to force a stark choice between her way or no deal. Some in her own party want her to have the vote soon, the ones who just tried to oust her, in the belief it will fail and they can force her to resign instead, allowing a Brexiter to assume control. Some of them are advocating for a second referendum as they believe Remain might win this time solving the problem for them, and they were remainers first time out- your Ken Clark side of the party- the moderates and pro-European wing.

Labour won't back a second referendum out of fear of alienating a section of their own working class base, and are going to refuse to vote for May's bill no matter what it is in order to defeat the government and table a no confidence vote. But they don't actually have a Brexit plan of their own or solution to questions such as the Irish border because in truth they are just split down the middle over the issue as the Tories are. So besides the Labour leadership plan to force a general election there are also Labour members advocating for a second referendum.

Just the domestic politics of it alone makes it a clusterfuck of unsolvable proportions before you even start on the actual content of the Brexit Bill, which seems less important than the political games being played around it anyway. Mad }}

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Re: UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:03 pm

Basically its Corbyn and mcDonut. They are holding out for a GE, and Corbyn is a brexiteer deep down. The only hope is if pressure from the young members and Momentum and Starmer make it impossible for them to flim-flam about. if he betrays the young membership will fall so he has to decide whether to betray the young and 48% of the population who voted, or the gammons. anyway 17 million is NOT the will of the people, there are 67 million+ people in the UK.

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Re: UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:16 am

{{{ Corbyn is an arsehole!!  Mad

The SNP have been pushing Labour to call vote of no confidence in the government in order to force a general election. Why get Labour to do it and not do it themselves?
Well the SNP could do it themselves, but then the government can just ignore them and not table any time for a no confidence vote. But thanks to the quirks of Parliamentarily rules if Labour, as the official opposition party do it, the government has to by law allow the vote. They have to make time for it. Hence why the SNP having been trying to persuade Labour to do the right thing.

So what does Corbyn do? He calls for a vote of no confidence in the PM, not the govenrment. This doesn't meet the rules to have a vote, as its not a no confidence in the government just one person so May, rather obviously, just batted it away refusing to allow the vote calling it 'silly political games.'

Corbyn is such an indecisive waverer- to afraid to do the right thing in fear of upsetting too many of his own voters who voted Brexit, but rather he do nothing than these pathetic gestures to try to look like he is doing something when he knows full well it will be utterly ineffectual. It's a pathetic waste of time.
SNP, Lib-dems. Welsh Nationalists and Greens are all trying to keep the pressure on him to actually act and declare no confidence in the government.
It remains to be seen if Corbyn can step up to the plate this time. Though ther eare no signs he will, or that if he does he will have been pressured into it.

And as of today in gloomy news the government are making preparations for a no deal exit. You know the thing May told us would be a disaster for the country? Now she is planning for it. Evil or Very Mad }}}

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Re: UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

Post by halfwise on Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:10 pm

Sounds like you have USA style gridlock. We've tried torpedoing it with Trump to no avail.

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Re: UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:33 pm

{{Corbyn is increasingly pathetic, now he has delayed the vote he wont get on no confidence in May until January, on the same day he gave an interview in the morning berating May for delaying the Brexit vote until January! Its unbelievable.

And if things dont seem bad enough the government seems to be expecting things to get worse, a lot worse-  }}

'Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson has told MPs that 3,500 military personnel, including logisticians and engineers as well as infantry units, were ready to be deployed... About 10% of the force would be reservists who will receive their call up papers in the middle of January so that if needed they would be ready in March'- BBC

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Re: UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

Post by Mrs Figg on Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:51 am

yeah no deal brexit is not going to happen, its project fear. there is no way Parliament will allow no deal.
agree about Corbyn he needs to bugger off and let Starmer take over.

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Re: UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:32 am

{{The opposition parties (excluding Labour of course), led by the SNP, have tabled a motion of no confidence in the govenrment- it won't get anywhere as it has no legal bite but that's not its point- its to try to shame Labour into action- not Corbyn, he is obviously a lost cause too afraid to act and to indecisive to know in which way to act, no this is aimed squarely at Labour backbenchers who are likewise unhappy in the hopes of provoking an internal revolt in Labour that will force the Labour leaderships hand.

And continued worrying sounding no deal news-

'The Public Accounts Committee of MPs says the government has not done enough to secure the supply of medical equipment in a no-deal scenario.'- BBC

And May is holding a summit with thee devolved administrations to persuade them to back her Brexit plan! Where is she holding it? London of course!

'Ahead of the summit, Mrs May said she was "confident that what we have agreed delivers for the whole of the UK".
She said: "This deal honours the result of the referendum - taking back control of our money, laws and borders, protecting jobs and livelihoods, and freeing the UK to strike new trade deals with countries around the world.
"That's why it is more important than ever that the devolved administrations get behind this deal and listen to businesses and industry bodies across all four nations who have been clear that it provides the certainty they need."- BBC

And in response Sturgeon has said this-

'"It would be unforgiveable if Theresa May was trying to run down the clock to Brexit day. She must immediately inform the EU that she will seek their approval for an extension of Article 50 if MPs reject her deal in January.
"This will allow time for an alternative way forward to be found, preferably another referendum on EU membership
"With 100 days to go before the UK is due to leave the EU, the UK government must stop threatening the disaster of no-deal, and start putting people's jobs and living standards first."- BBC

Somehow dont think Scottish, Welsh or NI parliaments are going to play ball with May at this 'summit' }}

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Re: UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:13 pm

{{Well this happened during part of the debate in Parliament, this will be the Tory demonstrating just how Scotland is an equal and respected partner and of course remember, we are better together!-




and why the Speaker did not intervene and get the Tory MP to retract the comment I dont know- smart of Blackford to repeat it though, as then it will entered into the official Hansard records for all prosperity }}

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Re: UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

Post by Mrs Figg on Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:49 pm

Bastard Tory lying fake news bollox!

He said "stupid people" I saw him say it for fucks sake.

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Re: UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:03 pm

{{I'm no lip reading expert but looks like 'people' to me, not 'woman', and added to that he is scanning his head side to side taking in the jeering Tory benches in front of him so in context 'people' makes more sense. }}


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Re: UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

Post by Mrs Figg on Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:13 pm

I expect the Tories to start up the anti-Semitism bollox any time soon. They are desperate to deflect blame. Meanwhile a homeless man was found dead in front of Westminster, says it all really.

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