Twin Peaks

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Post by Ringdrotten on Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:05 am

Read your recap(s) of The Return - currently working a night shift, so pretty sure I missed something. All I know is I will have to read it again and then watch the entire thing again. I have only two things to say at this moment, though - first, great work and analysis, right or wrong. I'm impressed with how much you notice and remember as you progress through the show. And thank you so much for posting it here, it'll make rewatching the series more enjoyable, of that I'm quite certain.

Second:

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:47 pm

so pretty sure I missed something.- Ringo

{{Ha more likely I did! There's a lot of it, especially when you take in the official companion books written by Frost like Secret History of Twin Peaks and The Final Dossier ect (which is where a lot of the information in the time line bit I did comes from).


'first, great work and analysis, right or wrong.'

Thanks Ringo, I appreciate you taking the time out to read it. As to right or wrong, that's the great thing about Peaks I'm not sure it really matters in the end, not so much as how it made it you feel and react and consider new concepts. In the end I think the experience is far more the point of it than understanding it- bit like life (but like life its irresistibly fun to try to make sense of it all).

'I'm impressed with how much you notice and remember'

Ah well, good education in crabbit primary school there to thank for that Twisted Evil - one of the first rules you learn at school in Scotshobbitland, this used to be written on the old fashioned blackboard in chalk every morning of school-

"Crabbit's nae yuse tae yi i' yi didnae pay attentshun tae whits mukin' yi crabbit i' the firs' place."

(and in plainer but more boring English)

'Crabbit is of no use to you if you don't pay attention to what's making you crabbit in the first place.'

Wise, but crabbit words, to live by Ringo! }}}

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:15 am

{{ This is still one of the most remarkable and mesmerizing openings to a tv episode of anything I have ever seen I did have the advantage and pleasure seeing it first time effectively on the cinema screen (in VR) but even on a normal TV still something. }}


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Post by halfwise on Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:43 am

I don't get it. This may be related to space aliens or something, but I don't see the direct connection to Twin Peaks. Don't see why 4 minutes of screen time would be devoted to the details of a nuclear explosion, stunning as the effects may be.

I'm only two episodes from the end of the first two seasons, and so far I don't see the unity of story lines that has been touted. Not just loose ends, but whole narrative corridors heading off into nowhere. I'm not complaining because it's been fun to watch, but it seems overhyped as a narrative structure. Not much payoff for some of the odder things, such as the space aliens, temporary insanity, etc.

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Post by Forest Shepherd on Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:52 am

Whhhhaaaaat???? Something Lynch made is annoyingly vague and largely pointless??

QUELLE SURPRISE!!!! affraid


okay I'll get out of here now...

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:17 am

I don't get it. This may be related to space aliens or something, but I don't see the direct connection to Twin Peaks. Don't see why 4 minutes of screen time would be devoted to the details of a nuclear explosion, stunning as the effects may be.- Halfy

{{well given to what you've watched and that its Lynch, its hard to say without knowing what might count as spoilery.
But the nuclear explosion is central to all events, and is the actual event recounted more mystically by Mike the One Armed Man in original Peaks.

That scene doesn't actually end there, just the youtube video does, so its without its finale as it were, but that I would deem more spoilery so unless you ask and want to know I'm not saying how that nuclear explosion scene ends!


Forest- you forget Peaks is a collaboration between Lynch and Frost, it has more obvious narrative structure than something like say Mullholand Drive or Lost Highway -and both those do have a narrative tale, just abstractly presented.

Art films are a very individual taste thing as all art is, directors like Lynch use film as the primary means of storytelling and invoking emotional response- the feeling is more important than the narrative structure underpinning it, in that Lynch will attempt to convey the meaning of the story through those invoked feelings in the viewer, not through expressed dialogue or normal story telling cinema conventions. Its a different use of film, more pure in being a visual medium in that it attempts to use just the visua and the sound scape as the primary means of conveying narrative.

But as I say taste vary- I adore Peter Greenaways very arty but in my view horrifically magnificent, The Cook, the Thief his Wife and Her lover, but I loathed his Prospero's Books as being arty and self indulgent for the sake of it and at the expense of best use of the film medium.

Its not necessary to like everything an artist does to appreciate their work, I am not an Eraserhead fan, nor a Lost Highway fan for example when it comes to Lynch, but I am a Peaks and its cousin Mulholland Drive fan, and an Elephant Man fan, and admirer rather than a fan of his take on Dune. But Peaks is different for me partly because its Lynch's manner of story telling but underpinned by Frosts more traditional narrative style. Lynch on his own is raw meat, pure and ready to give you a taste sensation, Lynch and Frost is meat on the bone, and for me that makes it more fun to get your teeth into.}}

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Post by halfwise on Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:19 am

to put things in thread context:

petty wrote: but otherwise made no sense and didn't even progress the plot.- Halfwise

{{ I'd disagree on both points for reasons I cant go into, but I'd say in the first series of Peaks at least nothing is pointless and nothing is wasted }}

I think I'll bugger off too before Petty wakes up...

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:28 am

{{I never sleep Twisted Evil - how do you think I end up chalking up this many posts! Mad I do occasionally pass out unconscious though Nod drunken drunken drunken  }}

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:37 am

I'm only two episodes from the end of the first two seasons..... whole narrative corridors heading off into nowhere. I'm not complaining because it's been fun to watch, but it seems overhyped as a narrative structure. Not much payoff for some of the odder things, such as the space aliens, temporary insanity, etc.'- Halfwise


{{To this I would say as far as the overall narrative of Peaks is concerned you can largely forget about a lot of what happens in series two with the exclusion of anything to with lodges and aliens and Major Briggs.
Pretty much as far as the overall story narrative is concerned its series 1- the finale of 2 plus those lodge/alien threads/fire walk with me/the return. All those things make one big story, the soap opera and more ridiculous antics of series 2, whilst often fun have little bearing on anything overall. Perhaps not surprising as this was when Lynch and Frost had the least to do with the show and were still angry at the tv execs forcing them to conclude who had killed Laura by revealing her killer- which Lynch considered like killing the golden goose as that central mystery was the one all the other ones spun off of.}}

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Post by halfwise on Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:58 pm

Oh, I thought by "series 1" you meant the whole of the original series. I still wouldn't agree that "nothing is pointless and nothing is wasted" for the first year as it doesn't all tie up: more like "all is atmospheriically consistent".

A lot of the best scenes in Twin Peaks go nowhere. There's nothing wrong with that: one of the most critically acclaimed scenes in Fargo is the meeting of the old high school classmates; a study in personal space and propriety that has no reason to exist except as a celebration of subtlety in acting.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:39 pm

still wouldn't agree that "nothing is pointless and nothing is wasted" for the first year as it doesn't all tie up: more like "all is atmospheriically consistent".- Halfy

{{Well to take the scene you used as an example- the rock throwing at bottle  scene- you say its pointless if atmospherically consistent- but I say its Cooper learning how to recognise the shapes and structure under in the pattern of our reality and to intuit the underlying narrative of the dreamer whose dream it is, and he does this, in episode, because he was inspired by a dream, and his inspirational dreams leading him to act this way are sourced in the Fireman (Giant), and the Fireman is doing this in order to prepare Cooper to be able to accept and operate within a different comprehension of reality, and that is necessary in order for the plan that has been devised to confront Judy and Bob to be enacted, the enacting of which is the plot of the Return.
So for me that scene is neither pointless nor wasted, though it is also atmospherically consistent! Very Happy }}}

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Post by halfwise on Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:06 am

Watched the last episode of the original series. What a waste. A couple minutes of interest when someone chained herself to the bank vault, but then it plunged irredeemably into Eraserhead land. 45 minutes of my life gone.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:45 am

{{ Not sure what you mean by 'plunged irredeemably into Eraserhead land' I don't recall anything very Eraserhead like about the finale.
The finale was where Frost and Lynch came back and (in my view) finally put series 2 back on track after the often fun, but frivolous and often pointless frolics of that series. Putting the focus for the finale firmly back on the White and Black Lodges and on Bob. }}

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Post by halfwise on Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:03 pm

It was a long stretch of Lynch style surrealism that I simply found annoying. They could have done the same in 5 minutes and actually closed the season with some character stories instead. That was the problem with Eraserhead: too much weirdness, very little story telling. It killed off any interest I may have to see anything more to do with Twin Peaks.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:22 pm

{{ Thats a shame in terms of the film, which would be next to watch, Fire Walk With Me, covering the last seven days of Lauua's life- I personally think its an excellent film even if you'd never seen Peaks. But its maybe for the best when it comes to series 2 if you thought the finale of series 2 was too indulgent, as Lynch often uses abstract ideas, sound and imagery to represent Lodge activity and the movement between worlds, and series 3 is all about the Lodges. }}}

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Post by halfwise on Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:41 pm

Yeah, if it's more of that stuff I want nothing to do with it. Lynch is at his best with quirky characters, at his worst when he dips into surrealism.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun Dec 02, 2018 4:17 pm

{{ I like when he does both at once! Smile But in Peaks all the weird stuff- the waiting room, dwarves talking backwards, giants in dreams, man-sized owls and aliens, the portals between worlds is all Lodge Bob/Judy related, and its represented through surreal and abstract visuals because its trying to convey experiences outside the human norm- and Return is all about the Lodges and therefore has a lot of that sort of film-making style in it.

The film much less so and it has a solid narrative underpinning what's going on: the final fall of Laura and what led her to it.

Narrative is the key for me, its why I am not a fan of Eraserhead or Lost Highway, as they are almost entirely meant as experiences, as how the viewer chooses to react to the imagery with a narrative arising out of that. I like a bit of structure at least and narrative underpinning the abstract to give it purpose and an aim- I feel with Peaks Lynchs abstract surrealism is being used to a purpose, pinned as it is to the structure of Frosts narrative. }}

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Post by halfwise on Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:08 pm

Up to the point of the last segment I thought the surrealism was balanced perfectly with the quirky characters and storylines, but they hacked me off with the last bit.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:44 pm

{{ Turns out this isn't short so pull yourself a pint drunken , lynch so much to talk about with that man!  Mad Anyhow, point I would like to make here Halfy in response is that the thing with the Return, and this is will be very spoilery for episode 8 of that series, but I dont think you'll be watching series 3 so shouldn't matter for you, is that the actual sci-fi story that it tells is not, and dont tell anyone, very complicated or really that out there as sci-fi concepts go.

Now episode 8- the one that opens with the nuke going off, is considered, certainly on a first viewing to be one of the more surreal and inexplicable episodes when in  fact its really fairy simple.


Here it is broken down into its basic narrative concepts (there is a point to all this I promise), what I tend to think of as the Frost narrative.

During the first nuclear test, in the heart of the explosion at a subatomic and quantum level a tear is ripped in the fabric of time and space allowing an accidental and momentary link between our level of existence and another.
In this other dimension outside our own are beings totally unlike us who exist in a universe with completely different laws, different flows of time, gravity ect they also have technology that is so advanced it looks like magic to us.
These beings are also utterly evil and corrupting, feeding as they do off the energy generated by misery, pain and suffering. This energy can be converted into either a food source for the beings, or as a hugely potent fuel with the power to to create and sustain portals between the dimensions, and is therefore in this form highly valued.They call it garmonbozia.

Taking advantage of the rift they send their engineers through it to establish a permanent bridge, by manifesting a vessel in this dimension. It conforms and has the appearance of an everyday thing, and looks like a convenience store.
The engineers make use of the properties of an energy which has different facets in different dimensions but is really just one thing running through all realities, in our dimension it is electricity. Because it goes through everything that is it can be used to move between dimensions, or within one.
The engineers use this energy in their technology to tune into our dimension, and create their away outpost here in the form of the convenience store.

But there are worse things in the multi-verse than them. There is the predator creature Joudray, or Judy, who is capable of consuming entire realities by causing mass suffering and pain and consuming everything, including the electricity which underpins that reality. She is symbolised as a black all consuming fire, She is unable to enter through the rift but can send herself into our reality in the form of offspring, eggs which she lays through the rift.

She also sends her less powerful but still very nasty consort Baal, or Bob, into our reality encased in an orb. He will need to find a host in our reality to have substance however.
Bob is tasked with causing as much suffering as he can and creating and producing enough garmonbozia to eventually open a portal that will let Judy fully enter this reality in a form she can consume it.

Meanwhile elsewhere outside our realm of existence a red alert goes off in a fortress. Its occupant is known as the Fireman, he is tasked with ensuring the electricity flow which is everything is not damaged, he puts out the consuming fires such as the sort started by Judy when she consumes a reality, hence his name.
He responds to the alarm and checks his scanner to see what has happened, and is shown the nuclear explosion, arrival of the engineers and setting up of their outpost in our reality, and Judy sending Bob and her eggs into our reality.
In response he sends a similar orb as that of Bob only this one is golden, it contains the essence of Laura Palmer, a created being who is sacrificial bait and will be a counter to Bob in this reality and a trap for Judy.
Using his advanced technology he sends the orb across reality into ours to be implanted into an embryo being carried by the adult Laura Palmer, whose husband Leyland is possessed by the entity Bob.

Several years after the nuclear event Judy's eggs hatch and produce small creatures with wings , but they require a host to be useful.
Judy sends in some engineers who have been corrupted by her, shown by their appearance as if blackened by fire. As is the rule when entering another dimension the entity has to conform to the local physical laws, so has the appearance of a human woodsmen blackened in soot, but has almost no understanding of how things operate on this level of reality- however they can assimilate this knowledge by inserting their fingers through a persons skull and directly into their brain. Stopping a passing car they do just that.

The engineer having learned what he needs to know about how things work then locates a local radio station, kills the secretary and assimilates the DJ, keeping him alive only as long as the engineer needs to operate the equipment, use the local language and put out his message- which is a repeated phrase at a modulated frequency which has a hypnotic effect on anyone listening, putting them to sleep.
Whilst asleep we see the young Laura Palmer, who has been listening to the broadcast fall asleep and one of the creatures enters her mouth and to be swallowed, so finding its host.


Now I grant you is quite out there, but if you've read a lot of scifi, its not that out there- it basically boils down to evil aliens from another dimension get here through a rift in reality and need hosts to survive and act in this world,they want to cause suffering and feed off it. A big bad couple of them, Judy and Bob want to consume the entire reality, and another entity called the Fireman is tasked with stopping them by manipulating people across space and time to thwart Judy. His chief tool in this task will be a young FBI agent called Dale Cooper.

But what happens to this fairly simple narrative in Lynchs hands is that he turns it into something else,something genuinely alien.
The Lodge entities, how they act, the seemingly inexplicable and surreal ways they act and things they do, the sense of uncertainty, mystery, confusion and tension it creates around them, that I think is more likely how it would go if we ever do meet aliens- that their existence, their perception and understanding of existence, will be so vastly different from us that their actions would simply seem baffling, or unknowable.
Lynch creates that feeling, these things truly are alien to us and the interaction between our grasp of reality and their obviously much, much, wider one creates this friction between worlds. It creates the surreal.

But because its Lynch demonstrating this difference between worlds but underpinned by the Frost narrative, which is actually fairly simple, the actions of the entities only have the appearance of being baffling and surreal, each one is actually representative of something which makes sense, from the aliens point of view.

Take for example the appearance of the woodsmen and their convenience store in our reality- in a standard scifi you could just have a bunch of people dressed as aliens on a weird looking ship, talking about how they are phasing through the rift and assimilating the local physical laws and languages now, and materialising in this dimension, running checks on the local physics and trying to work out what direction and rate time flows in this dimension. Whilst in their engineering section huge advanced engines sparking with electricity are trying to tune the ship in to our realities flow. Before they finally materialise after a bumpy start with lots of dramatic electric discharges in the engines in engineering section, whilst the bridge crew explain how the exterior shell of the ship will conform to the physical norms and laws of the reality and take on the appearance of something suitable to the environment, before revealing it as the convenience store.

Or you can Lynch it and present it without dialogue or any form of explanation using spliced together shots of the convenience store, flashes of electricity and light, static, lots of disturbing sound and music, and the woodsmen appearing disappearing and moving about outside at different rates and speeds and times, then they all appear inside the store silhouetted in white electrical light as the store finally arrives permanently in this reality.



For me Lynchs way is better because it keeps the mystery of the alien.
Lynch doesn't want to technobabble his scifi aliens plot and means at us, he wants us to be faced with it with our actual level of comprehension as humans living now in this time- which is not a lot! So we see the convenience store we see the woodsmen, wee see the jumps in time, the electricity being used- all the  bits within or grasp, but the how, the why the means, who and what they are all unknown to us because it would be. It seems baffling. And more Lynch's way of doing it also conveys and invokes a response in the viewer, it gives the sense of our reality being under attack, that this is an unnatural event tearing at how things are supposed to be, not by telling us it is in dialogue but by making us feel like it is.

And so the actions of the woodmen and the appearance of the convenience store makes sense from the aliens perspective- to us seeing it first-hand for the first time it just seems like a surreal impossible event that lacks explanation. But becuse its actually just a means to covey a simple scifi idea; crossing dimensions, its actually not baffling, its just really different from the human norm of operating. Truly alien.

Lynch presents his 'aliens' the Lodges and its denizens in this way as its how he is representing communication, not just between different species, but across the gulf of different notions of reality. As these aliens arent from another planet, they are from another reality and dimension/plane of existence entirely so at first glance their actions appear incomprehensible as do their means.

There have been more surreal sci-fi plots and concepts in Doctor Who in the past than in Peaks. What marks Peaks out is how Lynch presents those concepts in a way which is really alien to us. }}}

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Post by halfwise on Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:53 pm

but given that aliens really are alien, they should look alien and not human. This is where the attempt for realistic alien strangeness veers into surrealism. So the effort is wasted.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:02 pm

{{I dont think so because it works within the context of the given narrative- when beings shift realities, or densities, they have to conform to the rules of that reality. The forms they take on are all reflective of the type of universe they find themselves in. In the scene above the convenience store when they first arrive we see the Woodman realising our realm has 'animal life', thus they are animal life when here. There are also other aspects- the woodsmen appear so because of two fires which happened in Peaks, the last claiming the life of the log Ladies husband, who had discovered some of the precious fuel variant of the garbonzia and opened the portal at the sycamore trees. The woodsmen take on this soot covered appearance because of his interaction with their realm and because it also represents there corruption by the black flames of Judy's corruption for whom they are serving and because they serve as workman to the more powerful beings, so workman clothes reflect their stature and place in the alien society. I also find them very disturbing!





There is also the strong hint that in some cases, and especially true of beings we only ever see in the lodges, that they are not as they appear but representations of them made by the limited human perception of the viewer through whoever perception of events we see things, the human mind making  an attempt to interpret beings and events and understand what they are seeing but that are beyond our perceptional or intellectual grasp. }}

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:51 am

{{ Peaks the Return and technology.

Whilst rewatching the Return it occurred to me that there was more to the use of technology going on than meets the eye.

So I wanted to break this down into the different ways I see technology being used.

There is first the question of if the Lodge entities, the Woodsman, Judy and Bob have technology of their own.
At first glance most of what these beings do, say and even where they exist seems more akin to magic than to technology. But as Clarke said any suitably advanced technology looks like magic.
And we do get indications that the Lodge entities do indeed have technology. Its presented to us looking industrial; large iron devices such as the alarm bell in the Fireman's house. Or the 'tank' like object that Cooper find himself inside after being cast out the lodge by the Arm's doppleganger.
And the Woodsmen in particular seem to operate various types of industrial looking machinery as well as in in some fashion 'operating; the convenience store, which appears able to move around our realm of reality and to connect to others in space and time.
We also learn the the creation of the dopplegangers, the tulpa, which require among their ingredients to produce DNA from the person being copied implying some sort of medical technology is involved. And we are explicitly told that Dougie Jones tulpa was 'manufactured for a purpose'.
Then there is the owl ring itself which appears to have several potential properties but one definite one is that ability to transport someone upon death directly to the Waiting Room where their pain and suffering can be harvested as food in the form of garmonbozia.

Part of the key to understanding Lodge technology is to consider electricity. In Peaks electricity is a multi-dimensional force, in our universe it's just electricity, with all the properties we know of it, but it exists across universes and when seen from other perspectives, other realms of existence, other aspects of it are apparent in those dimensions we can't normally see. And the Lodger entities among other things can use electricity in our universe to travel through and manifest themselves or even just their intent.
So what appears magic to us is more likely a lack of having the fuller picture they possess of the different aspects of things which only appear in singular fashion within a given reality.
Another aspect to consider is we always see lodge technology through human interpretation of it, which does not seem accurate so much as representative within our limited perception.

To give an example Mike's problem with Bob is that if he possess Laura as planned then the lodge entities, Mike included dont get their half of the deal they struck with Bob, that once her misery and suffering had reached its peak Bob would murder her and send her to the Lodge where they would all share up her sorrow as suffering.
The food, the pain and suffering is referred to and seen visually as creamed corn, because this was Laura's favourite food and therefore comes to represent food, specifically Laura's suffering as food, visually throughout.
Mike also refers to the fact that he has ben storing up previous gained pain food, and he refers to this as him having 'canned corn'.
And indeed when we see the Convenience store you can see it contains rows of unmarked canned goods.
Like the garmonbozia being represented visually as creamed corn, and Mikes storage of the pain food being shown as actual cans of food, we get an idea of how the lodge technology is being perceived through a human understanding.


Taken all in its seems safe to say that the Lodge entities do in deed possess technology, unfathomable to us, but nevertheless they manufacture things, and they manipulate machinery to cause effects and they utilise existing technology they find.

Which brings me onto point two. The Lodge entities have been about as long as there have been humans to perceive them. But where they entered our realm was limited it seems by being to places which were natural weak between worlds. Places humans would go on to consider sacred or cursed. Magical groves, enchanted trees, sacred pools and the like. Such as the Sycamore Grove in Peaks.
These places again hint at having been added to or used by Lodge technology. The Sycamore portal can be opened with the highest form of garmonbozia which seems to be used like a power source.
But natural or not in the Peaks region the first stories of Lodge entities can be traced back to local Indian legends.
But there was nothing like the break through of the lodge world that occurred during Peaks. So what changed?

The answer is human technology.
It is human technology which either causes the rupture between worlds, or attracts like a moth to a flame, the evil reality consuming entity Judy  as a direct result of the White Sands nuclear test. With Judy finding a way to spew her offspring and servants into our reality through the heart of the explosion.
Upon arrival it is the technology of radio which allow a single woodsman to hypnotise and entire town in one go to find hosts for Judy's offspring.
But probably the biggest use of technology in the Return is the cell phone. Mr C uses one constantly to run his crime empire, plot with Diane and others and to lay his traps. It is technology which lets him uncover that his 'friends' have been hired to assassinate him by secretly recording their phone conversation, allowing him to kill them first.
Even as Dougie Jones it is fruit machines which initially save the day for him.
The glass box Mr C sets up to try to capture Cooper on his return is a mass of technology and electrical cable and computers monitoring it and recording it.
And of course electricity is everywhere in our world now, allowing the lodge entities the freedom to move as they wish pretty much anywhere they wish.

It would seem that Lynch is saying the advancements made in human technology are more for the worse than the better.

But that can't be said to be entirely true, as what else is the Fireman's cinema screen but technology of some sort? It is used to send the Laura orb to our reality and it was used to move Bob's exit from the portal to the Palmer house where he could have united with Judy, to the police station where all the people necessary to defeat Bob were gathered.

But perhaps the best example of technology, or at leat understanding a technology to be good is in how Mr C is finally shot by Lucy. She realised it was him because she suddenly understood how cell phones worked. Her lightbulb moment about cell phones led her to realizing Mr C was a phony.




For me what it says is that with the growth of technology so too the growth of what is dark in humans has room to spread as well, and infect people and places it would not have reached before bringing pain and sorrow and suffering with it.
But so too does what is good in people.
The fight of course, as in Peaks is between which sides of our nature is winning. }}}

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