Twin Peaks

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Re: Twin Peaks

Post by Ringdrotten on Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:05 am

Read your recap(s) of The Return - currently working a night shift, so pretty sure I missed something. All I know is I will have to read it again and then watch the entire thing again. I have only two things to say at this moment, though - first, great work and analysis, right or wrong. I'm impressed with how much you notice and remember as you progress through the show. And thank you so much for posting it here, it'll make rewatching the series more enjoyable, of that I'm quite certain.

Second:

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Re: Twin Peaks

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:47 pm

so pretty sure I missed something.- Ringo

{{Ha more likely I did! There's a lot of it, especially when you take in the official companion books written by Frost like Secret History of Twin Peaks and The Final Dossier ect (which is where a lot of the information in the time line bit I did comes from).


'first, great work and analysis, right or wrong.'

Thanks Ringo, I appreciate you taking the time out to read it. As to right or wrong, that's the great thing about Peaks I'm not sure it really matters in the end, not so much as how it made it you feel and react and consider new concepts. In the end I think the experience is far more the point of it than understanding it- bit like life (but like life its irresistibly fun to try to make sense of it all).

'I'm impressed with how much you notice and remember'

Ah well, good education in crabbit primary school there to thank for that Twisted Evil - one of the first rules you learn at school in Scotshobbitland, this used to be written on the old fashioned blackboard in chalk every morning of school-

"Crabbit's nae yuse tae yi i' yi didnae pay attentshun tae whits mukin' yi crabbit i' the firs' place."

(and in plainer but more boring English)

'Crabbit is of no use to you if you don't pay attention to what's making you crabbit in the first place.'

Wise, but crabbit words, to live by Ringo! }}}

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Re: Twin Peaks

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:15 am

{{ This is still one of the most remarkable and mesmerizing openings to a tv episode of anything I have ever seen I did have the advantage and pleasure seeing it first time effectively on the cinema screen (in VR) but even on a normal TV still something. }}


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Re: Twin Peaks

Post by halfwise on Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:43 am

I don't get it. This may be related to space aliens or something, but I don't see the direct connection to Twin Peaks. Don't see why 4 minutes of screen time would be devoted to the details of a nuclear explosion, stunning as the effects may be.

I'm only two episodes from the end of the first two seasons, and so far I don't see the unity of story lines that has been touted. Not just loose ends, but whole narrative corridors heading off into nowhere. I'm not complaining because it's been fun to watch, but it seems overhyped as a narrative structure. Not much payoff for some of the odder things, such as the space aliens, temporary insanity, etc.

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Re: Twin Peaks

Post by Forest Shepherd on Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:52 am

Whhhhaaaaat???? Something Lynch made is annoyingly vague and largely pointless??

QUELLE SURPRISE!!!! affraid


okay I'll get out of here now...

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Re: Twin Peaks

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:17 am

I don't get it. This may be related to space aliens or something, but I don't see the direct connection to Twin Peaks. Don't see why 4 minutes of screen time would be devoted to the details of a nuclear explosion, stunning as the effects may be.- Halfy

{{well given to what you've watched and that its Lynch, its hard to say without knowing what might count as spoilery.
But the nuclear explosion is central to all events, and is the actual event recounted more mystically by Mike the One Armed Man in original Peaks.

That scene doesn't actually end there, just the youtube video does, so its without its finale as it were, but that I would deem more spoilery so unless you ask and want to know I'm not saying how that nuclear explosion scene ends!


Forest- you forget Peaks is a collaboration between Lynch and Frost, it has more obvious narrative structure than something like say Mullholand Drive or Lost Highway -and both those do have a narrative tale, just abstractly presented.

Art films are a very individual taste thing as all art is, directors like Lynch use film as the primary means of storytelling and invoking emotional response- the feeling is more important than the narrative structure underpinning it, in that Lynch will attempt to convey the meaning of the story through those invoked feelings in the viewer, not through expressed dialogue or normal story telling cinema conventions. Its a different use of film, more pure in being a visual medium in that it attempts to use just the visua and the sound scape as the primary means of conveying narrative.

But as I say taste vary- I adore Peter Greenaways very arty but in my view horrifically magnificent, The Cook, the Thief his Wife and Her lover, but I loathed his Prospero's Books as being arty and self indulgent for the sake of it and at the expense of best use of the film medium.

Its not necessary to like everything an artist does to appreciate their work, I am not an Eraserhead fan, nor a Lost Highway fan for example when it comes to Lynch, but I am a Peaks and its cousin Mulholland Drive fan, and an Elephant Man fan, and admirer rather than a fan of his take on Dune. But Peaks is different for me partly because its Lynch's manner of story telling but underpinned by Frosts more traditional narrative style. Lynch on his own is raw meat, pure and ready to give you a taste sensation, Lynch and Frost is meat on the bone, and for me that makes it more fun to get your teeth into.}}

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Re: Twin Peaks

Post by halfwise on Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:19 am

to put things in thread context:

petty wrote: but otherwise made no sense and didn't even progress the plot.- Halfwise

{{ I'd disagree on both points for reasons I cant go into, but I'd say in the first series of Peaks at least nothing is pointless and nothing is wasted }}

I think I'll bugger off too before Petty wakes up...

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Re: Twin Peaks

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:28 am

{{I never sleep Twisted Evil - how do you think I end up chalking up this many posts! Mad I do occasionally pass out unconscious though Nod drunken drunken drunken  }}

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Re: Twin Peaks

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:37 am

I'm only two episodes from the end of the first two seasons..... whole narrative corridors heading off into nowhere. I'm not complaining because it's been fun to watch, but it seems overhyped as a narrative structure. Not much payoff for some of the odder things, such as the space aliens, temporary insanity, etc.'- Halfwise


{{To this I would say as far as the overall narrative of Peaks is concerned you can largely forget about a lot of what happens in series two with the exclusion of anything to with lodges and aliens and Major Briggs.
Pretty much as far as the overall story narrative is concerned its series 1- the finale of 2 plus those lodge/alien threads/fire walk with me/the return. All those things make one big story, the soap opera and more ridiculous antics of series 2, whilst often fun have little bearing on anything overall. Perhaps not surprising as this was when Lynch and Frost had the least to do with the show and were still angry at the tv execs forcing them to conclude who had killed Laura by revealing her killer- which Lynch considered like killing the golden goose as that central mystery was the one all the other ones spun off of.}}

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Re: Twin Peaks

Post by halfwise on Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:58 pm

Oh, I thought by "series 1" you meant the whole of the original series. I still wouldn't agree that "nothing is pointless and nothing is wasted" for the first year as it doesn't all tie up: more like "all is atmospheriically consistent".

A lot of the best scenes in Twin Peaks go nowhere. There's nothing wrong with that: one of the most critically acclaimed scenes in Fargo is the meeting of the old high school classmates; a study in personal space and propriety that has no reason to exist except as a celebration of subtlety in acting.

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Re: Twin Peaks

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Nov 29, 2018 3:39 pm

still wouldn't agree that "nothing is pointless and nothing is wasted" for the first year as it doesn't all tie up: more like "all is atmospheriically consistent".- Halfy

{{Well to take the scene you used as an example- the rock throwing at bottle  scene- you say its pointless if atmospherically consistent- but I say its Cooper learning how to recognise the shapes and structure under in the pattern of our reality and to intuit the underlying narrative of the dreamer whose dream it is, and he does this, in episode, because he was inspired by a dream, and his inspirational dreams leading him to act this way are sourced in the Fireman (Giant), and the Fireman is doing this in order to prepare Cooper to be able to accept and operate within a different comprehension of reality, and that is necessary in order for the plan that has been devised to confront Judy and Bob to be enacted, the enacting of which is the plot of the Return.
So for me that scene is neither pointless nor wasted, though it is also atmospherically consistent! Very Happy }}}

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Re: Twin Peaks

Post by halfwise on Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:06 am

Watched the last episode of the original series. What a waste. A couple minutes of interest when someone chained herself to the bank vault, but then it plunged irredeemably into Eraserhead land. 45 minutes of my life gone.

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Re: Twin Peaks

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun Dec 02, 2018 6:45 am

{{ Not sure what you mean by 'plunged irredeemably into Eraserhead land' I don't recall anything very Eraserhead like about the finale.
The finale was where Frost and Lynch came back and (in my view) finally put series 2 back on track after the often fun, but frivolous and often pointless frolics of that series. Putting the focus for the finale firmly back on the White and Black Lodges and on Bob. }}

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Re: Twin Peaks

Post by halfwise on Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:03 pm

It was a long stretch of Lynch style surrealism that I simply found annoying. They could have done the same in 5 minutes and actually closed the season with some character stories instead. That was the problem with Eraserhead: too much weirdness, very little story telling. It killed off any interest I may have to see anything more to do with Twin Peaks.

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Re: Twin Peaks

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:22 pm

{{ Thats a shame in terms of the film, which would be next to watch, Fire Walk With Me, covering the last seven days of Lauua's life- I personally think its an excellent film even if you'd never seen Peaks. But its maybe for the best when it comes to series 2 if you thought the finale of series 2 was too indulgent, as Lynch often uses abstract ideas, sound and imagery to represent Lodge activity and the movement between worlds, and series 3 is all about the Lodges. }}}

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Re: Twin Peaks

Post by halfwise on Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:41 pm

Yeah, if it's more of that stuff I want nothing to do with it. Lynch is at his best with quirky characters, at his worst when he dips into surrealism.

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Re: Twin Peaks

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun Dec 02, 2018 4:17 pm

{{ I like when he does both at once! Smile But in Peaks all the weird stuff- the waiting room, dwarves talking backwards, giants in dreams, man-sized owls and aliens, the portals between worlds is all Lodge Bob/Judy related, and its represented through surreal and abstract visuals because its trying to convey experiences outside the human norm- and Return is all about the Lodges and therefore has a lot of that sort of film-making style in it.

The film much less so and it has a solid narrative underpinning what's going on: the final fall of Laura and what led her to it.

Narrative is the key for me, its why I am not a fan of Eraserhead or Lost Highway, as they are almost entirely meant as experiences, as how the viewer chooses to react to the imagery with a narrative arising out of that. I like a bit of structure at least and narrative underpinning the abstract to give it purpose and an aim- I feel with Peaks Lynchs abstract surrealism is being used to a purpose, pinned as it is to the structure of Frosts narrative. }}

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Re: Twin Peaks

Post by halfwise on Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:08 pm

Up to the point of the last segment I thought the surrealism was balanced perfectly with the quirky characters and storylines, but they hacked me off with the last bit.

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Re: Twin Peaks

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:44 pm

{{ Turns out this isn't short so pull yourself a pint drunken , lynch so much to talk about with that man!  Mad Anyhow, point I would like to make here Halfy in response is that the thing with the Return, and this is will be very spoilery for episode 8 of that series, but I dont think you'll be watching series 3 so shouldn't matter for you, is that the actual sci-fi story that it tells is not, and dont tell anyone, very complicated or really that out there as sci-fi concepts go.

Now episode 8- the one that opens with the nuke going off, is considered, certainly on a first viewing to be one of the more surreal and inexplicable episodes when in  fact its really fairy simple.


Here it is broken down into its basic narrative concepts (there is a point to all this I promise), what I tend to think of as the Frost narrative.

During the first nuclear test, in the heart of the explosion at a subatomic and quantum level a tear is ripped in the fabric of time and space allowing an accidental and momentary link between our level of existence and another.
In this other dimension outside our own are beings totally unlike us who exist in a universe with completely different laws, different flows of time, gravity ect they also have technology that is so advanced it looks like magic to us.
These beings are also utterly evil and corrupting, feeding as they do off the energy generated by misery, pain and suffering. This energy can be converted into either a food source for the beings, or as a hugely potent fuel with the power to to create and sustain portals between the dimensions, and is therefore in this form highly valued.They call it garmonbozia.

Taking advantage of the rift they send their engineers through it to establish a permanent bridge, by manifesting a vessel in this dimension. It conforms and has the appearance of an everyday thing, and looks like a convenience store.
The engineers make use of the properties of an energy which has different facets in different dimensions but is really just one thing running through all realities, in our dimension it is electricity. Because it goes through everything that is it can be used to move between dimensions, or within one.
The engineers use this energy in their technology to tune into our dimension, and create their away outpost here in the form of the convenience store.

But there are worse things in the multi-verse than them. There is the predator creature Joudray, or Judy, who is capable of consuming entire realities by causing mass suffering and pain and consuming everything, including the electricity which underpins that reality. She is symbolised as a black all consuming fire, She is unable to enter through the rift but can send herself into our reality in the form of offspring, eggs which she lays through the rift.

She also sends her less powerful but still very nasty consort Baal, or Bob, into our reality encased in an orb. He will need to find a host in our reality to have substance however.
Bob is tasked with causing as much suffering as he can and creating and producing enough garmonbozia to eventually open a portal that will let Judy fully enter this reality in a form she can consume it.

Meanwhile elsewhere outside our realm of existence a red alert goes off in a fortress. Its occupant is known as the Fireman, he is tasked with ensuring the electricity flow which is everything is not damaged, he puts out the consuming fires such as the sort started by Judy when she consumes a reality, hence his name.
He responds to the alarm and checks his scanner to see what has happened, and is shown the nuclear explosion, arrival of the engineers and setting up of their outpost in our reality, and Judy sending Bob and her eggs into our reality.
In response he sends a similar orb as that of Bob only this one is golden, it contains the essence of Laura Palmer, a created being who is sacrificial bait and will be a counter to Bob in this reality and a trap for Judy.
Using his advanced technology he sends the orb across reality into ours to be implanted into an embryo being carried by the adult Laura Palmer, whose husband Leyland is possessed by the entity Bob.

Several years after the nuclear event Judy's eggs hatch and produce small creatures with wings , but they require a host to be useful.
Judy sends in some engineers who have been corrupted by her, shown by their appearance as if blackened by fire. As is the rule when entering another dimension the entity has to conform to the local physical laws, so has the appearance of a human woodsmen blackened in soot, but has almost no understanding of how things operate on this level of reality- however they can assimilate this knowledge by inserting their fingers through a persons skull and directly into their brain. Stopping a passing car they do just that.

The engineer having learned what he needs to know about how things work then locates a local radio station, kills the secretary and assimilates the DJ, keeping him alive only as long as the engineer needs to operate the equipment, use the local language and put out his message- which is a repeated phrase at a modulated frequency which has a hypnotic effect on anyone listening, putting them to sleep.
Whilst asleep we see the young Laura Palmer, who has been listening to the broadcast fall asleep and one of the creatures enters her mouth and to be swallowed, so finding its host.


Now I grant you is quite out there, but if you've read a lot of scifi, its not that out there- it basically boils down to evil aliens from another dimension get here through a rift in reality and need hosts to survive and act in this world,they want to cause suffering and feed off it. A big bad couple of them, Judy and Bob want to consume the entire reality, and another entity called the Fireman is tasked with stopping them by manipulating people across space and time to thwart Judy. His chief tool in this task will be a young FBI agent called Dale Cooper.

But what happens to this fairly simple narrative in Lynchs hands is that he turns it into something else,something genuinely alien.
The Lodge entities, how they act, the seemingly inexplicable and surreal ways they act and things they do, the sense of uncertainty, mystery, confusion and tension it creates around them, that I think is more likely how it would go if we ever do meet aliens- that their existence, their perception and understanding of existence, will be so vastly different from us that their actions would simply seem baffling, or unknowable.
Lynch creates that feeling, these things truly are alien to us and the interaction between our grasp of reality and their obviously much, much, wider one creates this friction between worlds. It creates the surreal.

But because its Lynch demonstrating this difference between worlds but underpinned by the Frost narrative, which is actually fairly simple, the actions of the entities only have the appearance of being baffling and surreal, each one is actually representative of something which makes sense, from the aliens point of view.

Take for example the appearance of the woodsmen and their convenience store in our reality- in a standard scifi you could just have a bunch of people dressed as aliens on a weird looking ship, talking about how they are phasing through the rift and assimilating the local physical laws and languages now, and materialising in this dimension, running checks on the local physics and trying to work out what direction and rate time flows in this dimension. Whilst in their engineering section huge advanced engines sparking with electricity are trying to tune the ship in to our realities flow. Before they finally materialise after a bumpy start with lots of dramatic electric discharges in the engines in engineering section, whilst the bridge crew explain how the exterior shell of the ship will conform to the physical norms and laws of the reality and take on the appearance of something suitable to the environment, before revealing it as the convenience store.

Or you can Lynch it and present it without dialogue or any form of explanation using spliced together shots of the convenience store, flashes of electricity and light, static, lots of disturbing sound and music, and the woodsmen appearing disappearing and moving about outside at different rates and speeds and times, then they all appear inside the store silhouetted in white electrical light as the store finally arrives permanently in this reality.



For me Lynchs way is better because it keeps the mystery of the alien.
Lynch doesn't want to technobabble his scifi aliens plot and means at us, he wants us to be faced with it with our actual level of comprehension as humans living now in this time- which is not a lot! So we see the convenience store we see the woodsmen, wee see the jumps in time, the electricity being used- all the  bits within or grasp, but the how, the why the means, who and what they are all unknown to us because it would be. It seems baffling. And more Lynch's way of doing it also conveys and invokes a response in the viewer, it gives the sense of our reality being under attack, that this is an unnatural event tearing at how things are supposed to be, not by telling us it is in dialogue but by making us feel like it is.

And so the actions of the woodmen and the appearance of the convenience store makes sense from the aliens perspective- to us seeing it first-hand for the first time it just seems like a surreal impossible event that lacks explanation. But becuse its actually just a means to covey a simple scifi idea; crossing dimensions, its actually not baffling, its just really different from the human norm of operating. Truly alien.

Lynch presents his 'aliens' the Lodges and its denizens in this way as its how he is representing communication, not just between different species, but across the gulf of different notions of reality. As these aliens arent from another planet, they are from another reality and dimension/plane of existence entirely so at first glance their actions appear incomprehensible as do their means.

There have been more surreal sci-fi plots and concepts in Doctor Who in the past than in Peaks. What marks Peaks out is how Lynch presents those concepts in a way which is really alien to us. }}}

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Re: Twin Peaks

Post by halfwise on Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:53 pm

but given that aliens really are alien, they should look alien and not human. This is where the attempt for realistic alien strangeness veers into surrealism. So the effort is wasted.

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Re: Twin Peaks

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:02 pm

{{I dont think so because it works within the context of the given narrative- when beings shift realities, or densities, they have to conform to the rules of that reality. The forms they take on are all reflective of the type of universe they find themselves in. In the scene above the convenience store when they first arrive we see the Woodman realising our realm has 'animal life', thus they are animal life when here. There are also other aspects- the woodsmen appear so because of two fires which happened in Peaks, the last claiming the life of the log Ladies husband, who had discovered some of the precious fuel variant of the garbonzia and opened the portal at the sycamore trees. The woodsmen take on this soot covered appearance because of his interaction with their realm and because it also represents there corruption by the black flames of Judy's corruption for whom they are serving and because they serve as workman to the more powerful beings, so workman clothes reflect their stature and place in the alien society. I also find them very disturbing!





There is also the strong hint that in some cases, and especially true of beings we only ever see in the lodges, that they are not as they appear but representations of them made by the limited human perception of the viewer through whoever perception of events we see things, the human mind making  an attempt to interpret beings and events and understand what they are seeing but that are beyond our perceptional or intellectual grasp. }}

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