US General Election 2016

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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by halfwise on Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:58 pm

I was about the post the same thing, but you guys beat me to it.

They will claim they are taking politics out of science. Just the opposite. No

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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:17 am

{{Need help from the UShobbits here in defining some terms!

This from Trump's security speech (which he mainly spent talking down previous administration and talking up his own and surprisingly little time on actual security)-

"On top of everything else, our leaders drifted from American principles, they lost sight of America's destiny, and they lost their belief in American greatness,"

OK- heres what I need to know-

1. What are 'American principles'?
2. America has a destiny? Do all Americans know this and what it is?
3. What is American greatness? Is it military greatness? Democratic greatness? Setting up puppet regimes and assassinating legitimately elected leaders and planting and supporting dictators in power with arms greatness? Shrugging  }}

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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by David H on Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:32 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{2. America has a destiny? Do all Americans know this and what it is? }}

I'm not sure. Maybe something to do with obesity? scratch Shrugging

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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by halfwise on Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:33 pm

Laughing

We had a manifest destiny, but once we firmly took control of California that was pretty well sorted.

Depending on who you talk to the principles will shift.  With conservatives it's all about individuality and freedom; with liberals it's about equal justice and human rights.

The current meaning of destiny is probably conflated with greatness, which in this context would mean economic prosperity and the ability to tromp over anyone who threatens it.  Liberals would tend to be more concerned with American goodness rather than greatness.

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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by Eldorion on Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:17 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:What are 'American principles'?

What is American greatness?

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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by Amarië on Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:33 pm

USA

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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by Bluebottle on Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:47 am

“But you know as well as I, patriotism is a word; and one that generally comes to mean either my country, right or wrong, which is infamous, or my country is always right, which is imbecile.”

― Patrick O'Brian, Master and Commander

Nod

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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by halfwise on Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:04 am

Canadians are famous for not being patriotic. As a Canadian put it "Patriotism is for countries that don't work right."

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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:54 am

{{{I suppose I shouldn't be surprised noone actually knows what American destiny, principles or greatness actually are- after all Trump has been saying "Make America great AGAIN' since the start and I never did find out when it was great the first time!  Mad }}}

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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by halfwise on Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:26 am

1950's. Other than a somewhat self-inflicted mess up in Korea things were booming and America's global influence was supreme.  This is the period that Americans derive their inflated self-image from.  It was rather recent and short; but since it was corresponds to the childhoods of those who are now in power it is idealized if not mythologized.

Others may point out the Reagan years when Russia was basically outspent and exited superpower status for a while.  At some point during the Clinton years as the economy purred we actually achieved a balanced budget Shocked but since that was done at the expense of the military large factions refuse to accept it as a period of greatness, and these are usually the same ones who continue to loathe Clinton.

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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:48 am

1950's.- Halfy


{{ Cold War- McCarthy witch-hunts. Segregation. Covertly assassinating and overthrowing legitimate governments in Latin America. Korean war. And massive environmental damage done in the pursuit of progress and profit.
Yeah just great! What a decade! A decade so unjust and so rigidly stratified socially in the US the next decade would be the decade of the civil rights movement in response to it!

Plus pretty unique circumstances, most of Europe was still rebuilding (and repopulating) after being devastated by war, the British Empire was undergoing its final collapse and the industrialization of what would become the emerging competing economies in Asia and India in particular was only just beginning.

You cant go back- you never can. }}}

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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by David H on Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:07 am

OK, but UK's "finest hour" in 1940 was kind of a mess too. Surely you've had a better hour than that in the last 77 years, haven't you?

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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:55 am

{{Ah well yes, but at least we were realistic enough to confine it to a single hour! Besides we arent trying to make Britain Great Again, apparently aiming for 'strong and stable' is as good as it gets these days! }}}

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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:27 am

{{So Trump got his tax plan passed in to law, more or less bar some minor technicalities.
Whilst I think the law is bad enough in itself- its mainly helps out corporations, multi-nationals, the very wealthy, people with property and people who send their children for expensive private education- in other words exactly the sort of people who dreamed up the bill. Funny that.
The cuts it does give to the bottom end come with a time limit on them of 2025- oddly enough the cuts for the rich don't!

But apart from all that seems to have a couple of things attached which seem equally cruel and disastrous- the repeal of the mandate on the Affordable Care Act, my understanding of the mandate is that without it US healthcare will face a near impossible funding hole. Whilst Conservatives will no doubt be happy to see it collapse in such a fashion the pain, misery and even death doing it this way will cause to everyday folk is unjustifiable surely? And secondly they seem to have attached to a tax plan an excuse to go drilling in the arctic, in areas previously deemed protected. As Trump keeps telling us with fracking, and coal and oil that America has enough resources to last hundreds of years why is this even necessary? Has nothing at all been learned from recent experiences and recent history? Mad

To pick one of the Presidents favourite words- 'sad'. }}}}

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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by Lancebloke on Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:51 am

As always Petty, the rich find ways to make themselves richer and the poor just get poorer.

The Trump administration seem to be blatantly lying to people in the same way that the Brexit crew did to us. Only difference here seems to be 'EU fascists ' instead of 'because god '.
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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by halfwise on Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:33 pm

I'm not sure how much effect the individual mandate had - I noticed while filling out my taxes the proof of health insurance seemed to be on an honor system, which is just plain silly. But the threat may have kicked enough rear ends to make a difference. I honestly don't know. What DID make a difference is the presence of need-based insurance pricing. People WILL buy it if the price is right, but some extra encouragement from the top probably helps with that.

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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:11 am

{{{ Being completely useless and not knowing what you are saying or have said in the past seems to be a hallmark of Trump's Admin! :facepalm: }}}


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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by halfwise on Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:26 pm

He's as bad as Trump, before Trump even appeared on the scene it seems.

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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by malickfan on Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:05 pm


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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by halfwise on Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:26 pm

It's certainly been an entertaining ride this first year. Nod

But since we're a democracy, Trump should be viewed as a symptom rather than the disease itself.

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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by malickfan on Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:55 pm


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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:52 pm


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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by malickfan on Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:15 pm


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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by halfwise on Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:50 pm

Oh but he's so much fun. How can you appreciate him if you don't have him in person for a few days. Heck, why not take him for a week? You must have plenty of McDonald's, what with all the Irish and Scottish running about.

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Re: US General Election 2016

Post by malickfan on Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:53 pm

Ok we'll take Trump for a week, if you take Boris Johnson for a month, deal?

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