Star Wars [3]

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Re: Star Wars [3]

Post by halfwise on Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:52 pm

I totally agree Firefly encapsulates what we wanted to see in a Han Solo film. Damn, why didn't anyone ask Joss Whedon to write and direct? Problem solved.

Firefly was one of the best damn things to ever grace television. One more season at least would have been perfect.

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Re: Star Wars [3]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:26 pm

{{One of my favourite Firefly episodes is Jaynes Wolr- just brilliant and so funny- dont watch this clip if you havent seen the series- not that its spoilery so much as just so much better in full context.

For everyone else enjoy again the moment on the Mudders world when they not only find out Jayne the self-centred thug of the team has a statue put up to him, but features in a heroic folksong too! }}}


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Re: Star Wars [3]

Post by halfwise on Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:43 pm

Whedon's strength is not just creating a spectrum of quirky characters, but locking them together into a believable unit. That episode was the perfect payoff of a lot of character development.

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Re: Star Wars [3]

Post by Forest Shepherd on Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:39 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:What do you mean exactly Petty by Lando "going Captain Jack"?

As to pansexuality?? Where did that come up in the film?- Forest

{{ I admit to bringing some prior knowledge to this one so I was looking out for it- but it is there in the performance, looks ect. Captain Jack was pansexual hence the reference.

Here's the actor on the matter-

'There’s so many things to have sex with. I mean, serious. I didn’t think that was that weird. Yeah, he’s coming on to everybody. I mean, yeah, whatever. He’s like having like a ’70s swing — yeah. It just didn’t seem that weird to me ’cause I feel like if you’re in space it’s kind of like, the door is open! It’s like, no only guys or girls. No, it’s anything. This thing is literally a blob. Are you a man or a woman? Like, who cares? Have good time out here.'

and the writers- (in response to being asked if Lando was pan-sexual -) '“I would say yes,” Jonathan Kasdan emphatically said. "There’s a fluidity to Donald and Billy Dee’s [portrayal of Lando’s] sexuality,” Kasdan continued. “I mean, I would have loved to have gotten a more explicitly LGBT character into this movie'- and the bit that bothers me more than the amount of it they got in this particular film-  'I don’t know where it will go.”

Or in other words its now an established part of Lando's character- he is pansexual- and if we get more Lando in other films that's how he will now be portrayed.
Neither Donald Glover's shining insight into his character, "there's blobs in space to fuck!", nor Jonathan Kasdan's "sure, yeah that sounds good" comment mean anything except as commentary on the movie. This Lando character is a fop, clearly, but there wasn't anything else there.



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Re: Star Wars [3]

Post by David H on Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:42 am

Everything Petty and Halfy just said about Firefly Thumbs Up Metal Thumbs Up

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Re: Star Wars [3]

Post by Forest Shepherd on Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:22 am

I've only watched the first two-thirds of the first episode. But I liked it well enough. Smile

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Re: Star Wars [3]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:22 am

This Lando character is a fop, clearly, but there wasn't anything else there.- Forest

{{I wouldn't entirely agree- I would say if you didn't know that's how the writers viewed it and how the actor had been told to play it then its not so overt its going to distract or get in the way, but if you are looking for it then yeah its definitely there in the performance, small looks ect
As I said I find it more annoying that going forward now if the character continues that's part of him now. As I dont think it fits with Empire or Jedi. }}}

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Re: Star Wars [3]

Post by David H on Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:57 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:
{{I wouldn't entirely agree- I would say if you didn't know that's how the writers viewed it and how the actor had been told to play it then its not so overt its going to distract or get in the way, but if you are looking for it then yeah its definitely there in the performance, small looks ect
}}}

The best example of that is in the beginning of Ben Hur when the director told Stephen Boyd that he and Charleton Heston had  once been teenage lovers who had broken up, but didn't tell Heston! The scene can be taken either way when you watch it. A beautiful bit of directing I think! Nod


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Re: Star Wars [3]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:21 pm

{{Indeed Dave, and that I did not know- I shall have to look out for that next time!- and I have no objection whatsoever to something similar in SW- just not with a character who we already know and who acted explicitly heterosexual. If it was a new character they created all good do what they like. }}}

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Re: Star Wars [3]

Post by David H on Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:33 pm

That story comes from an interview with Gore Vidal who wrote the screenplay for Ben Hur. It was broadcast on NPR's "Fresh Air" with Terry Gross. I remember they replayed it when Gore died. If it's online somewhere it may be worth tracking down before rewatching Ben Hur, if only because Gore was such a great storyteller!

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Re: Star Wars [3]

Post by David H on Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:39 pm

OK here's the transcript:
GROSS: One of the things you're credited for during your stay in Hollywood is having written in the gay subtext in the move "Ben-Hur." And this was like the motivation for rivalry between the Charlton Heston and Stephen Boyd characters. And the code was - the Hays Code was still in effect at that time. I was wondering about how much you could imply in that homosexual subtext without the Hays Code coming in and taking it out.

VIDAL: Well, it wasn't that it was so much homosexual - again, I don't approve of these categories. I said that to justify the fact that the two guys meet, they haven't seen each other since they were kids - one is Roman and other is a Jewish liberationist in Palestine - and the Roman wants to make a deal with his old Jewish friend, but the Jewish friend rejects him.

I said to do this on political grounds is not enough to sustain a two-and-and-a-half, three-hour movie. There's not enough emotion under it, just a political argument is not enough for such hatred, I said to Willy Wyler, the director. I said: I will write it that they once, as kids, had an affair, don't go into any details, and who knows what an affair is, they might never have touched each other.

But I'm going to write that in, and the Roman wants to resume the old relationship, and the Jewish liberationist, Ben-Hur, doesn't want to. I said without ever mentioning what this is about, if that's written in there in the under text of what they're saying, it'll give the scene a lot of power.

Wyler said, well, anything's better than what we've got. We had the world's worst script that we'd inherited.

(LAUGHTER)

VIDAL: And he said: You tell Stephen Boyd. I won't. Don't say a word to Heston, or he'll fall apart. So Heston did the whole thing with...

(LAUGHTER)

VIDAL: Heston has eight profiles, and he showed all eight of his profiles, and Stephen Boyd is looking at him like a hungry man waiting for dinner, and it's a wonderful scene.

(LAUGHTER)

VIDAL: And the audience doesn't quite know what it is, but they know something very electrical is happening between these two people, and that is what gave the energy that drove the film, you know, kept you going to the chariot race.

GROSS: Now the Hays Code people didn't notice this?

VIDAL: Oh, of course not. That was one great fun we had with the code was getting things by that they never suspected what you were doing. They were too busy having, you know, one foot on the floor when the married couple were in bed to show, little knowing that you can have one foot on the floor, and heaven knows what could be going on.
https://www.npr.org/2012/08/03/157778526/fresh-air-remembers-writer-and-critic-gore-vidal

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Re: Star Wars [3]

Post by Bluebottle on Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:47 pm

I agree with you, Petty, the movie was a fair enough movie, but it did a bad job of telling the story it should be telling. Although, I think the movie suffered from the necessity of making itself Disney-heroic, as in whether the Han character should be more or less good/bad. Han before what happens in Star Wars should not be a heroic character. The growth of the character that makes him heroic happens throughout the three Star Wars movies.

And because you make the movie heroic, its lead character must be heroic, its events must be heroic, its story must be heroic. Let go of this trope, and I think you would have a far more interesting movie.

I think Firefly is a bad parabel, Malcom Renyolds is a far darker character than a young Han should be, and has a story-background to be so. And I do not think we should read to much into the "Han shot first!" line of thought, that you shoot first someone that would shoot you first, is not the same as shooting people (first) for no reason. There is this idea of a lack of mercy, that is not necessary to explain his character. And I think for that reason people look for something that was not necessarily there. A cut-throat smuggler is perhaps what Han acts like in his role as a smuggler, but as the story shows very quickly, that is not his character.

I also agree the quality of the movie is so so, nothing special perhaps, but certainly nothing bad. Better than The Jedi Returns (more at stake), much better than The Force Awakens (much more at stake), not as good as Rouge One. (Much much less at stake.) Odd that.

And also, as always in these Star Wars movies, the reduction of Chewbacca to a merely supporting character is dissapointing. Perhaps the movie would have been better revolving around their friendship?

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Re: Star Wars [3]

Post by halfwise on Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:28 pm

Oh Lord. Reading about Han and Chewie's friendship back to back with what Dave just posted about Ben Hur. silent

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Re: Star Wars [3]

Post by Forest Shepherd on Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:42 pm

Laughing

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Re: Star Wars [3]

Post by David H on Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:12 pm

pale Embarassed Embarassed Embarassed

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Re: Star Wars [3]

Post by Bluebottle on Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:41 am

Perhaps they conceived the wrong character(s) as bi. Nod

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Re: Star Wars [3]

Post by Lancebloke on Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:39 am

Just found out that Star Wars Galaxy's Edge at Disney Florida won't be open until autumn next year. That was the while point we were gonna go in the summer!!
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Re: Star Wars [3]

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:41 pm

The growth of the character that makes him heroic happens throughout the three Star Wars movies.- Blue

{{This I think is the heart of it indeed Blue- if they had started with this simple and obvious premise then by definition any version of Han they write before that point should not be a hero in a heroic story.

"I think Firefly is a bad parallel, Malcom Renyolds is a far darker character than a young Han should be, and has a story-background to be so." - Blue

I wasn't so much proposing a one to one equivalence so much as it being a template for how to write witty, charming, charismatic criminals in a fun engaging way without diluting the fact they are criminals.

Having said that though, and now you've got me thinking Blue I am not sure you couldn't actually largely 'appropriate' Malcolm Reynolds story to Han.

Young Han- I'd go for younger than Malc, say 15, child soldier recruited in-desperate measures on his home planet which is out on the fringes and trying to withstand an Empire bid to take over by force ie Battle of Serenity renamed to whatever Hans planet would be. His planet loses because a big crime-boss (same race as Greedo) sells illegal dangerous experimental weaponry to the Empire. Han escapes in some exciting but believable fashion and gets smuggled off world by a roguish smuggler type, who promptly sells him on arrival to a bunch of slavers. Somewhere along the way to his early twenties he befriends fellow slaves Chewie and Greedo, they escape, kill some slavers and steal their credits and get themselves a small ship to smuggle goods in (basically a firefly) he recruits a bunch of similar disenfranchised types wit low morals and in need of a quick buck (including high stakes gambling man and pilot Lando) and they set off on petty raids, heists ect where Greedo and Lando in particular prove useful and seemingly trustworthy allies, and Han learns to pilot properly, taught by Chewie who is shit hot at flying stuff and Lando, oh and Chewie also rips the arms off and kills one of the nondescript crime crew for cheating at holo chess.

They get on the wrong side of a big crime boss who is very big on loyalty and arms dealer as well as collector, Greedo however argues against taking the job but refuses to say why, its the same guy who sold to the Empire at Hans worlds defeat. The stuff their smuggling for him turns out to be more experimental weapons to be used on another planet of a bunch of poor downtrodden folk like Hans own home world and so instead Han steals the cargo and destroys it- shenanigans ensue Han and Chewie get double crossed by his own crew led by Greedo and Lando who gambles with Han, if Han wins Lando gets his ship but he walks away, if Han loses Lando gets his ship and hands him over to the crime boss as everyone's pissed they didn't get paid for Hans act of goodwill and they dont do good causes and charity work. 
Han loses and he and Chewie get taken by Lando and Greedo to the Crime Boss- bit of chat here and the crime boss shows off his weapons collection and boasts about past successes- including Han's home world revealing the connection to Han, he also points out in order to boast very items in his collection, items of torture and weaponry, including a blaster in his collection, one of the first true blasters ever made and a rare collectors piece, the blaster Han will later own.
All looks at its bleakest after torture and promises of endless more till they die and Chewie having his head shaved in preparation of it being drilled, Greedo and Lando will witness a part of this in an echo of Empire, so in Empire the look Lando gives there can be read as both regret and the memory of this having happened before and his previous double cross of Han.
Greedo will be revealed to be the crime lords son- he killed Greedos mother for not being loyal enough and cast Greedo out onto the streets of a slum planet to fend for himself so he didn't grow up weak and pampered and is now very proud of his boy.
Lando this time though walks away and gets his reward- the Falcon in which he flies off with Greedo as Han and Chewie are tortured.

However Greedo betrays Lando and renders him unconscious before mounting a rescue in the Falcon of Han and Chewie. They get away, Greedo confronts his father and kills him and Han takes the blaster. They blow up the bad guys and make off in an exciting space battle in the falcon after which Greedo offers Han and Chewie a position on the Falcon, but Han turns him down as even if he did rescue them, he still double crossed him with Lando, from now on Han and Chewie will fly Solo implying he got his name as a nickname that that way but not saying so--and no more good causes, from now on he and Chewie are looking out for none but themselves and as such they will also be taking the Falcon off Greedo, essentially betraying him.
Lando wakes up and tries to convince Han that it was his plan to rescue them all along, but Greedo knocked him out before could enact it, when this is not believed he tries to take them out with his blaster but in the ensuing fire fight a crucial pipe is shot flooding the compartment with gas the only way out for Han and Chewie is out the Falcon and Lando makes off with the ship with Han swearing he will find Lando again and take his ship too.
Han and Chewie go the shipyards where they find a new ship to embark on their smuggling career together in the next film where they will get entangled with Lando again and get reunited with Greedo in a major heist for a certain Mr Hutt of Tatooine as well as a certain gambling match for the Falcon.

There you go off the top of my head- lacking detail here and there I admit but hey a classic three act tale- and I think Id still rater watch what I've scribbled down than what they seem to have scribbled down on the back of a beer mat.

edit add- updated it a little as additional ways to tie things together occurred-can't help myself!


Just found out that Star Wars Galaxy's Edge at Disney Florida won't be open until autumn next year. That was the while point we were gonna go in the summer!!

Ah man that sucks elephant balls!! If it was advertised as being open when you booked the holiday see if you can sue some bugger for compensation- after all when in Rome and its the American way!}}}


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Re: Star Wars [3]

Post by halfwise on Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:51 pm

Lance - while down that way could you check out the Florida Keys and see if they have bounced back from the hurricane?

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Re: Star Wars [3]

Post by Mrs Figg on Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:41 pm

Lancebloke wrote:Just found out that Star Wars Galaxy's Edge at Disney Florida won't be open until autumn next year. That was the while point we were gonna go in the summer!!

go check out the fairy castle instead. far more fun.

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Re: Star Wars [3]

Post by halfwise on Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:46 pm

Things may not be great with Disney, but we dodged a bullet.

https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/movies/a21343712/george-lucas-star-wars-7-9-plot/

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Re: Star Wars [3]

Post by bungobaggins on Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:15 pm

halfwise wrote:Things may not be great with Disney, but we dodged a bullet.

https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/movies/a21343712/george-lucas-star-wars-7-9-plot/

George had the idea of the Whills even before the first film was made, that a Whill had recorded these events of the galaxy as a historical record. I think the first screenplay was subtitled "Journal of the Whills" or something like that.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Journal_of_the_Whills

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Re: Star Wars [3]

Post by halfwise on Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:06 am

Hmm...wikipedia did not make the connection to midichlorians that Lucas seemed to be making.

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Re: Star Wars [3]

Post by Forest Shepherd on Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:22 pm

Joss Whedon is supposed to be directing a Batgirl movie in the near future. So there's that.

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Re: Star Wars [3]

Post by halfwise on Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:05 am

Just saw Solo. First half hour felt like the dialogue was written to be intelligible to 7 year olds. After that it improved. Though I can't figure out where Woody Harrelson thought he'd be taking the fuel when he walked off into a lonely desert around a refinery with no ships anywhere. Was he gonna bury it and come back later or what?

Yeah, the whole thing needed more thought. Maybe the first part was where it was still being directed as a comedy and then they salvaged the straight takes? They didn't even credit the original writers/directors. Harsh.

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