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Post by halfwise on Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:41 pm

Why do the critics like it so much more than the public? That's pretty rare, and must mean something but I can't suss it out.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:52 pm

{{Few reasons there Halfy, but main one is if you look at the critics reviews the vast majority of them only review the first 1-3 episodes of the series and the scores are based off that. The first episode in particular gets a decent score as everyone wants to see the new Doctor and its an ok episode, nothing spectacular but its ok.
Another reason is its the first female Doctor, many of the critic s reviews are people who confess in the review to not being fans of the show or not having watched it before but are now because of its new female angle and politics, and there is a reluctance on the part of many critics to be seen to be saying bad things about the first female Doctor.
If you look at the Audience Appreciation Index (AI) scores which the BBC track you can see that the real disparity between show and audience sets in about the middway point, with Tsundgra Conundrum (which Chibbers wrote himself) and ends at the lowest AI for a finale in NuWho.
Series 11's politics are front and centre, so whilst you can take a few episodes of it, by episode 10 its just been hammered in over and over to the point of bland tedium and the stories that they created to support the messaging are not strong enough or well enough written to stand on their own.  }}

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:53 am

{{{  Laughing }}


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Post by azriel on Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:32 am

lol!

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Post by Amarië on Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:30 pm

I realized I probably should care a bit about when Who is on?

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Post by Amarië on Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:34 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{{  Laughing }}


Laughing Nice!

Is he the official Dalek voice or just damn good at it?

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:37 pm

{{He is just very good at it!
Nicholas Briggs is the man behind the Dalek voices-




New Years Special is on at 7pm GMT }}

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Post by Forest Shepherd on Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:42 pm

He just has the right software and accent. The video is great though!

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Post by Amarië on Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:39 pm

On the bright side, the female Dalek
Spoiler:
wasn't a female Dalek after all!
I dunno... Finrod put it best a few days ago. I said there was one last episode before a long a break, and he said. "Hm. Hope they get someone who can write."

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Post by Mrs Figg on Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:27 pm

ok I had wifi for a bit and watched the New Year special. Rolling Eyes

Spoiler:
I managed to watch all of it, but whats with Eastenders dad angst going at .0000009 miles an hour snoozefest plonked in the middle for no good reason? is there one? apart from the will he wont he fall out of the TARDIS at the end trope. ffs she is still gurning btw

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Post by Mrs Figg on Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:29 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{This is not good, I mean series 11 isn't worth much more than this, but not good for the show at all. The New Years episode is going to have be very good to repair some of this damage!}}

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it wasn't.

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Post by azriel on Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:31 pm

This is why I get dumped on from a great height, I never learn. I never learn to keep my word & not watch Dr Who EVER again, but, I did tonight. What a wally ! Again, more boring dross about abandoned son, absent father, oh yaaaaaaaawn ! The most terrifying, the most evil, the most.....it will never stop until it destroys or rules everything......creature in the universe ??? I fear my cat on a bad day more than that. Oh God why have you forsaken me ! I had to stab myself with a fork to get the tears moving, it was Sooooo bad ! The world doesnt need spoilers. Do you want your youth plagued by people being kind to you by using spoilers ? Not with this dross you don't ! If I told you all of this episode in every language on the planet Id be doing you a mental kindness so that you may grow up rational & caring. What has improved ? only my ability to hit the remote button. Shame I didn't use it. I think I was shell shocked & to think Mr Chibnall had the sense of humour to list his name, his real name, to the credits ! you have to admire him for that !
"So Mr Chibnall, in what style of genre do you attribute yourself to ?" "In which category would you say are your main strengths ? "
Ive heard drunks staggering down the street with more imagination !! What a Panto Dr Who has turned into ! Im off to bed I will sulk no more.

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Post by Forest Shepherd on Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:29 am

Quality rant! I can't see it til tomorrow I think, so we'll see how I react.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:39 am

{{{ I take my hat off to your crabbit rant Azriel Id almost mistake you for a native Nod


{{Spoiler filled first thought review.

Spoiler:


Well on the surface that was better than anything we got in the series and was actually closer to what I expected from Chibnal from the start. But better does not mean good given how low the bar was set by the series finale for just being better than it..

So whilst some things were better, and this series has been lacking in positivity, I will start with the good.
The TARDIS is in this one, we spend some scenes in her, and its the best its looked- still looks like a too small dingy cave too me, but it was at least in the story and seemed better lit and brighter.
Due to the nature of the threat Jodie got to do a lot less gurning bouncy Doctor and had to put a bit more of serious face on things, this helped her performance immensely, though they shied away from taking it as far they should, or anywhere near really and reverted to touchy-feely Doctor by end.
I liked the new ideas around the recon Dalek, I liked the idea of it piloting people and I liked when it got its shell sort of back and got its weapons back it was a force to be reckoned with.

That's the good. Then there is the good and bad at the same time- the Ryan/Ryan's Dad stuff- there is nothing actually wrong here, there is some good character drama of the sort Chibnal is known from in Broadchurch, just two characters sitting down talking in everyday setting, and I thought the performances were good in both- Ryan and his Dad in the cafe and Ryan's Dad and Grahame in the house. But in terms of plotting and pacing they were terrible, they ground the whole thing to a halt.
We are getting a two minute mono luge from Ryan on the rights and wrongs on parenting- but it's whilst there is Dalek piloting a human towards a weapons cache, which seem a tad more interesting and pressing and I'd much rather be seeing because I'm watching Doctor Who and not a kids version of Broadchurch.

I would also have liked it if there were some overall theme connecting the parts, but on a first watch at least I don't see them if there is. We have the story of the Doctor trying to track down and stop the Dalek before it can signal the Dalek fleet, and we have Ryan and his Dad, and though narratively the two come together in the final scenes, thematically there seems nothing to link them. There is also an odd line commenting on dads from the Doctor where she says , "true, or so Ive heard' in regard to dads being difficult- which seems an odd remark for a character who has been both father and grandfather.
She also later makes a critical comment about Ryans dad being deficient in parenting skills- which is bloody hypocritical coming from someone who abandoned his own granddaughter on a post- apocalyptic earth with a relative stranger and no means of leaving.

Then there is the bad- well it opens on exposition of course. But at least it has visual accompaniment and isn't just someone telling us it standing in a room. And here we will get into the story because it basically, in its entirety, also this weeks 'things which didn't make any sense'.

So in the 9th century a Dalek recon scout arrrives on earth. It has extra special killing powers as its on its own. Somehow the locals band together, defeat this Dalek, tie it down under a net and then burn the dalek inside the shell. They then get the Dalek out the shell, chop it up into three pieces and put them at three different far flung parts of the planet, with a guardian to watch over it, and the descendants of those guardians still are. Meanwhile the Order set up to keep all this secret have become a hi-tech alien weapons acquiring firm and happen to still have just lying about on a table for some reason boxes containing all the bits of the Daleks shell and its weapons, all the way from the 9th Century.

This set up is rabbit hole of what the fucks? How did 9th century warriors defeat a Dalek? We see it in the episode blow up a military unit plus tank. How did throwing a net over a Dalek stop it? Again in this very episode once in its shell we see it not hover but exploded upwards smashing its way out through a ceiling- but it couldn't get out of a 9th century rope net pegged to the ground? How did the locals burn the Dalek in the shell, you could stick a Dalek in a bonfire it wouldn't even singe. How once they had killed it did they get inside the shell to extract the Dalek? Once they had done that impossible thing how did they break up the Dalek shell into bits its made of Dalekanium which makes steel look like soft French cheese. Why did they cut it up into three parts and bury them and not say burn it to ashes and be done with it? Why keep the bits, they set guardians and created an Order around protecting the bits so they must have thought they were still dangerous- so why not just destroy them?- why bother with all the burial, centuries of secrecy and guardians? What for?

And it only gets worse. In Sheffield, of course, a couple of archaeologists are working new years day and uncover a bi of the Dalek, as its guardian never made it to his destination but got ambushed and killed by robbers on route. They stick their finds under UV lights and this is enough apparently to revive the bit of Dalek.
But then several things happen which again don't make much sense or have any offered explanation. The Dalek can somehow instantly transport the other two bits from their hidden locations around the globe right to it- how, where its transporter hiding? Where is the power for it coming from? The episode makes a big deal later about it requiring massive amounts of power, draining the Uk grid (leading to a terribly acted cut away scene to make a crap old joke about millennials being forced to have a conversation instead of staring at their phones), so how did it do this when it was just a slice of Dalek in a bag? Don't expect answers there are none.

Once the bits arrive the bag it fits into is really small, as when we see the Dalek its hard to picture how it would actually fit comfortably even within a Dalek shell- compared to previous Daleks we have seen this thing is huge. There is no way all three bits united fitted in that small bag! And if it grew massive almost immediately how did it do that? What was it feeding on?
In some scenes it looks good, and some scenes it looks very cgi fake, and theres a nod or two design wise once it strapped itself onto  a person and taken control of comic character Venom about it, or the Darkness.

So there's a  Dalek squid on a wall, the female archaeologist spots it and gives it a poke, Doctor and co arrive having tracked a warning signal of non-terrestrial life on earth.
Now this is important though it seems small, as for me it highlights what's wrong with how Chibnall treats 13.
Upon arriving 13, quite rightly uses her sonic to examine the male archaeologist and take readings to make sure he has not been compromised.
Now elsewhere in this episode the script has 13 do stuff to make her seem clever- she takes a goo sample and does some kitchen sink science on it to work out its a dalek ect- and that's fine and Doctory.
But back in this initial scene when she is then introduced to the female archaeologists, is told by her what she has seen on the wall, and they go and see the Dalek is now gone and escaped. And 13 doesn't take a sonic reading of her to check if she has been contaminated- the one person who has confessed to being in contact with the Dalek.
The reason? If she had the Doctor would have immediately noticed it was strapped to the woman's back and taking control of her. The only reaosn 13 doesn't sonic her as she has everyone else is the plot requires her not to. But by Chibnal taking this cheap way out he makes her seem stupid again in her actions. Its no good making her seem brainy in the lab if you then make her an imbecile in the field.

The Dalek piloting the woman about, her struggles to fight back against it and the Dalek relentlessly pursuing its cause are for me easily the best bit of this special. Its a creepy idea, it makes sense, and its implemented pretty well for the most part. The performance is very good and for the most part I liked what they did with the Dalek.

You see way back in the days of early classic individual daleks had a bit more personality about them, they didn't all move quite the same, some jiggled about excitedly as they spoke, some rocked back and forth, some were always stationary, some sounded more excited than others, some madder, some saner, some were more impatient, some were wiser. Its only in more recent times that they have become more uniform. Moffat addressed this somewhat with Rusty, giving a Dalek some individuality back. But here they do it with the voice- its not quite Dalek as we know it as its not coming through the shell, but it still has that Dalek tendency to scream its words when it gets angry or excited for death. Not quite sure of the idea of  a Dalek laughing, though it sounded creepy, but then they do have a concept of beauty they think hatred is beautiful, so maybe there are Dalek stand-ups who do routines about horrible things happening to people for daleks to laugh at!

Point is I actually thought a good side-effect of having an episode with thee Dalek out its shell but still able to speak was a good way to free up the voice to be more individual.

Unfortunately what the Dalek actually does with its piloted human is another of those rabbit holes of what the fuck?
So it first goes and breaks into the weapons place of the Order and recovers all the bits of its shell and its Dalek gun, stored there since the 9th century. It then goes to a remote farm shoots the  farmer and gets the woman who it still controls to start building the shell. And heres the problem, it only has bits of its original shell left, the rest she apparently knocks up from steel and iron lying about the farm.
This gives us our junkyard-chic Dalek, which though never confirmed to be a female in the episode does rather look like its wearing a corset as the middle section is now very thin. But boy are there issues here, this Dalek shell can not only withstand sustained firepower, it has built in mini rockets (which seemed a move with an eye on the toy market to me)  but all the bits not made of Dalekanium should be vulnerable. And why did no one in the British army think to just throw a net over it, apparently that works!

The scene in which it decimates the army unit is nice in terms of Daleks being deadly, threatening and unstoppable and uncaring. But the fact she cobbled all that together and it has all this superior alien tech and seem invulnerable doesn't make sense at all. That all the bits it needs are just lying about in handy storage boxes for it as if waiting doesn't make sense either.

And worse we are given no reason for why once the shell is complete the Dalek leaves the woman alive- she doesn't do anything after she is saved in the plot and the Dalek has absolutely no motivation for not killing her before it hops back in its shell and nones is offered. It juts lets her be.

Ok I need to talk about he resolution part of resolution- the story resolution mainly. Remeber in the finale how something of no real consequence to anything was literally strapped to the Doctor's face just so it could be there handy to save the day at the end? Well this time out its a microwave oven which Ryans dad lugs about all episode long, and which the Doctor uses in a speal of science babble to melt the Daleks casing.
This is another wtf for a few reasons. 1 why is the casing so weak- you can't just melt through dalekanium with some oven bits, and if the non Dalek bits are that vulnerable how come the army didn't so much as scratch it?
Secondly are we to believe that there was nothing aboard the TARDIS no tech, no handy gadgets or bits, that could not do what a primitive early 21st century oven can do?

And it highlights again how Chibnal can be very clumsy in setting this stuff up. Last time we heard about Ryan's Dad we were told he was away working on the oil rigs. But Chibnall needs him to be trying to flog  a microwave oven as he needs it for his plot resolution. So now he has to waste time in the Ryan conversation explaining why his Dad no longer works on the rigs and why he has trying to flog ovens. And its all just a clumsy excuse to once again have the resolution to the problem carried about by a main character through the story until needed.

But I have to mention here the politics and social agenda creeping in, in clumsy ways. There was an unnecessary reference by the security guard to his 'quickest fingers' and his boyfriend which reminded me of the worst of the RTD early era when characters used to announce their sexual orientation before telling you their name. It just seemed put there to tick the gay character in episode box along the way.

And then there is what Chibnal did to UNIT. With a Dalek on the lose 13 rightly calls up UNIT HQ to warn Kate Stewart about it, only to be put through to a pathetic 'comic' sketch in a call centre, where she learns UNIT has been disbanded due to government finance policy, getting in a dig at the Tories and BREXIT too along the way. UNIT has been a part of the Who mythos since the 3rd Doctor, its head the Brigadier since the 2nd Doctor. To disband it and remove it in such an offhand way, in a bad political sketch is the lowest Chibnal has sunk so far in sticking two fingers up to fans of any Who prior to his own. That scene shat on the legacy of UNIT and the Lethbridge-Stewarts name and didn't even try to hide it. And it wasn't even funny either.

You will notice I also haven't even mentioned Yaz. At the start when they first meet the archaeologists the Doctor tells Yaz to take their statements and escort them out to safety- and thats it as far as nodding to her police career goes, after that she doesn't really have much of anything to do other than be there.
When it comes to passing nods seeming to be enough, at the end after Ryan saves his Dad he says 'not bad for a kid with dyspraxia' remember it, it was mentioned in ep 1 and maybe once or twice randomly again in the series. Ok it has had nothing to do with anything, or any part in Ryans character development, but it got a shout out so yeah!

Oh and about that ending- it another entry for things that dont make sense.
So the Doctor takes the Dalek to a supernova, and opens the doors, creating a gap in the TARDIS shields just big enough for the Dalek to get through, but its got to strong a grip on Ryans Dad, the Doctor starts losing control of the size of the hole as gravity takes hold and its soon big enough to take Ryan's Dad out with it.
Ryan gets to his Dad and offers his hand to save him- and hears where it makes no sense, the Dalek goes on about how it controls him now and wont release him- is the Dalek wanting to die? Thats not very Dalek, Its stil in control ,why doesn't it just take Ryans hand, Ryad pulls them back in and the Dalek is saved too and could still blackmail them. Why does it not want to be saved? Survival at all costs- you can't exterminate and prove your the superior genetic race in the galaxy dead. The Dalek resisting Ryan saving his dad, and therefore it, is nonsensical. But for script reasons once Ryan grabs his dads hand and pulls him back towards him the Dalek lets go/loses it grip conveniently and gets sucked out into the star.

Also the Doctor big speech to the Dalek flanked by the 'best of humanity' was a bit preachy and on the nose. Yes the Doctor has eluded to his love of humans in the past- 4th Doctor speech in Ark in Space for example on the indomitably of the human spirit, but this was just lacking in subtly. Compared to 11' 'always remember the best of yourself. My friends have always been the best part of me." or 12's more understated, "I dont need an army. Because I've got them. Always them." This was like a touchy-feely drawn out version of those. When it comes to writing big speeches for the Doctor Chibnal is Moffats opposite, Moffat could write a big speech but every short line in it said a lot. Chibnal writes a long speech with long lines which say very little. They are just drawn out simple sentiments.

So um, what would I rate it? Well about a 5 maybe a 6 for having some actual sci-fi ideas in it. But pretty much everything surrounding the basic idea of the Dalek out its shell and rebuilding and becoming deadly again is terrible, or where its well enough done like the Dad/Graheme conversation, its badly placed so it grinds the episode to a crawl.
I suppose if you treat it as pure popcorn Who with brain entirely disengaged its got action, its got a threat, its got a resolution and some nice side characters in the archaeologists (though they dont really go anywhere with either character in the end) but if you switch your brain on for even a few minutes you'll have more questions than answers and the problems become ever more evident.
}}

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Post by azriel on Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:10 am

Brilliant write up Petty. You did what I could not, & that's rationalize this dire episode.

"Its hard to accept that a fully paid writer is allowed to give us such sub standard work on a traditional, well loved TV series. He seems to forget the longevity of this show. Its older than many people watching it. Its endured thru good times & bad. It has a loyal & sturdy fan following but, Chibnall forgets his audience & throws insult after insult in their faces. Me included. I remember as a child hiding behind my mum's back & wrapping cushions around me out of sheer fear of the Daleks. I havent lost my fear because I am an adult, adults still can be scared, Ive lost it due to sloppy & ungrateful writting.  I expect a finer quality of programne than this ! Im quite proud of Dr Who & happily smile about it to my grandchildren. I wouldnt endorse this if I was offered a years supply of free shopping.  You highlighted things I noticed also. I dont believe someone would readily go up to something that looked like an octopus & that appeared to be growing, stuck on a wall in front of them when moments earlier it wasnt there. You can see her asistant lurking in the back waiting for someone to say  " and cue wotshisname"  she would have called him over to see what she sees. I cant swallow that ridiculus story about 9th century peasants defeating a Dalek !! Even a battle weary warrior with high swordsmanship would be no match for such a killing machine. And the 3 segments ?  yeah, they were buried deeply werent they !  wrapped in rags, Mmm, thats secure ! And Where did the rockets that flew out from the Dalek come from, on a farm ?? Why did the farmer talk to the policewoman like shit ?  He saw her uniform, saw the car, you dont open conversation by speaking to coppers like that ?  And going on about shutting agencies down due to lack of funds &  getting kids off mobiles is the worst gags ever ! absolutely NO imagination there.  " oh daddy take my hand" is like some cheesy pop song. Fingers touch & all is forgiven, yuk, puke ! I was waiting for daddys end ! that creature would easily have pulled human thru Tardis doors & quite happily be scorched to a kebab but no, we had to endure something out of character for a Dalek & a heart string tug over parental guidence for the Christmas period. I cant find one redeeming feature in this. I was insulted by a man who obviously not watched or seen Dr Who as long as I have & is happy to insult my mind now because obviously I am now geriatric & senile, so it wont matter. The inside of the Tardis is a mess !  It hasnt progressed its degenerated. This episode above all has left me feeling sick to the pit of my stomach. An immature "newbie" didnt carve up the Dalek & bury it, he did it to Dr who."

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Post by Forest Shepherd on Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:24 am

I'm just part-way through it now. Just had to pop in and say that somebody's into tentacle pron, lol.

Ah man, and missed a golden opportunity to use, "Acc-el-ER-ATE!!!"

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Post by Mrs Figg on Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:31 pm

Forest Shepherd wrote:I'm just part-way through it now. Just had to pop in and say that somebody's into tentacle pron, lol.

Ah man, and missed a golden opportunity to use, "Acc-el-ER-ATE!!!"

Laughing

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Post by Mrs Figg on Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:35 pm

It was really really crap. Ryan and his dad/grandad problems are seriously boring me. When she said "extended fam" I nearly punched my pc. and talking of pc, that gay dude Rolling Eyes what subtle stereotyping.

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Post by azriel on Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:07 pm

I nearly choked on my co-ops own brand chocolate seashells when she told the Dalek she had the best team in all the world on her side !! You what ?? They look like they are waiting for a bus, & its late, & they don't know what to do.

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Post by halfwise on Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:20 pm

azriel wrote:I nearly choked on my co-ops own brand chocolate seashells when she told the Dalek she had the best team in all the world on her side !! You what ?? They look like they are waiting for a bus, & its late, & they don't know what to do.


Laughing one of the most cutting critiques in this whole thread!

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Post by azriel on Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:31 pm

Thank you Halfy :hug:

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:09 pm

{{Agreed Halfy- your crabbit is on point Azriel Twisted Evil

Well Chibbers has a new Who record to add to his growing list- worst overnight audience for a Who special ever- at 5.1 million, more folk watched Emmerdale  Mad  }}}

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Post by Mrs Figg on Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:30 pm

I watched Luther after Dr Who and that was good. if a bit icky and never getting on a bus again. ever. I nearly shat my pants.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:12 pm

{{Haven't seen Luther yet but did hear some complaints it was verging on torture porn pale

A thought occurred to me about the deaths in this one- I was trying to figure out if there is any possible reason that the Dalek would not kill the woman it was controlling once she was let go- it makes no sense at all. The Dalek would have snapped her in two before leaving her just to prove its the superior lifeform- its a  Dalek, exterminating other life forms for not being Dalek is what they do.
And then it occurred to me that there are in fact no civilian deaths in this episode. None. Yet it has a high death toll as is normal for a Dalek episode, so who dies?
Police, security guards, government officials and members of the military, I wouldn't normally consider that too suspicious but we have the civilian who should have died, for whom there is no reason given why she is not killed, and they go out their way even though it makes no sense to not have her die. Why? Because she isn't associated with either government or big business?

Also like to raise a charge of sexist portrayal in this one- the one female who dies on camera- the female cop- first she is reading her newspaper whilst her partner is going to an unknown vehicle, in unknown circumstances after a reckless high-speed pursuit at over 100mph- this would never happen, no cop would be reading their newspaper in these circumstances. When she does eventually notice her partner being killed she leaps out the car, the Dalek gets out and she screams upon seeing it- cut to screeching tires as Dalek makes off with cop car leaving two dead cops behind.
Now would it not have been better had she not been incompetent, but been watching her partner, soon as he gets grabbed she leaps out the car, sees the Dalek- and instead of screaming like a woman from 70's Who she instinctively reaches for her baton and pepper spray - you know like she is trained to do in hostile circumstances-and squares up to the Dalek?- she'd still die but at least she'd have gone down with some respect and like a proper copper. Not as an incompetent bobby lacking in diligence who lets her partner get killed and screams when confronted. Mad }}

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Post by Mrs Figg on Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:31 pm

Only 70s female cops were more Cagney and Lacey than screamy. But yeah the whole episode wallowed in cheap stereotypes.

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