Ten Fucking Years

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Post by Gandalf's Beard on Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:42 pm

Hidden hero my arse! Razz

He was a vindictive abusive psychopath till the last. He was just a bad-guy who switched sides because he got the girl he liked killed. If he was a good guy who actually respected Lily though, he would have treated Harry a lot better. Snape was a cruel, selfish bastard who only cared about his own sense of loss.

Think about it--Snape is the one responsible for putting a target on Harry's back, and 1/3 responsible for making Harry an orphan. And then he treated Harry like trash for seven years. You have to be a bit of a psychopath to be that cruel.

The best you can say is that Snape is a great literary antihero. He's a very compelling character. Smile

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Post by halfwise on Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:30 pm

Harry represented what Snape most wanted and couldn't get; and Harry's dad treated Snape with all the scumbaggery we see coming out of Snape later.  It makes psychological sense.  Another nice turn-around that JK pulled off is having Harry find out his idolized father wasn't all that nice a person all the time.

So Snape becomes the villain you can sympathize with, and a realistic hero: someone who you can't figure if you like him or not, but you feel some compassion for and it puzzles you.  Such complex depth is a rarity in a children's book, and is JK's greatest accomplishment.

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Post by Eldy on Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:52 pm

Snape abused most of his students (Slytherins generally excepted). He was Neville's worst fear in the whole world when the kid was 13.* Snape was a terrible human being with a shitty upbringing that goes some way towards explaining the way he turned out but does not excuse all the things he did. Certainly a compelling character and one I enjoyed reading about, but he was not "good" and he most definitely does not deserve the praise and treatment he receives from a certain segment of HP fandom/the fanfic community.

*Footnote:
Let's not forget his treatment of Hermione either:

Snape examined Goyle, whose face now resembled something that would have been at home in a book on poisonous fungi.

"Hospital wing, Goyle," Snape said calmly.

"Malfoy got Hermione!" Ron said. "Look!"

He forced Hermione to show Snape her teeth - she was doing her best to hide them with her hands, though this was difficult as they had now grown down past her collar. Pansy Parkinson and the other Slytherin girls were doubled up with silent giggles, pointing at Hermione from behind Snape's back.

Snape looked coldly at Hermione, then said, "I see no difference."

Hermione let out a whimper; her eyes filled with tears, she turned on her heel and ran, ran all the way up the corridor and out of sight.

It was lucky, perhaps, that both Harry and Ron started shouting at Snape at the same time; lucky their voices echoed so much in the stone corridor, for in the confused din, it was impossible for him to hear exactly what they were calling him. He got the gist, however.

"Let's see," he said, in his silkiest voice. "Fifty points from Gryffindor and a detention each for Potter and Weasley. Now get inside, or it'll be a week's worth of detentions."

I can feel empathy for Snape having endured severe bullying at school for years as well as (from the brief glimpses we get) probably growing up in an abusive household--at the very least, a seriously dysfunctional one. Sadly, people who were abused going on to abuse others is a fairly common occurrence, but the fact that we can sympathize with parts of their experience doesn't mean the experiences of their own victims should be discounted. HP in general tends not to acknowledge the seriousness of child abuse when it occurs, though.
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Post by halfwise on Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:47 pm

Welcome to the first Norcing of the new year! cheers

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Post by Amarië on Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:01 pm

halfwise wrote:Welcome to the first Norcing of the new year! cheers

*sniffles* It's so beautiful!

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Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:19 pm

I get all your points about Snape being an abuser because he had had a shtity childhood being bullied, but the one thing he lacked as an adult was a legitimate way out of the cycle of abusing. From what I read about Hogwarts it was like an enclosed Oxford college full of dusty professors and was surrounded by children which allowed him to be a bully. if he had worked in the Ministry for Magic and had been surrounded by adults and eligible females he might have been different or broken the cycle. He might however just bullied his work colleagues. But in an adult environment he might have been challenged more and made to think. I think he would have been a loner no matter what and being surrounded by couples might even made him worse. He is a complex character and Halfy is right, he is her greatest achievement.

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Post by Gandalf's Beard on Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:24 pm

Snape was NOT an innocent victim when he went to Hogwarts.

He was a vicious little racist thug who was part of a gang of junior death munchers who terrorised muggleborns and molested girls with dark magic.

I can empathise with Snape's shitty home life before Hogwarts, but he was a horrific neo-Nazi youth at school and then he became a neo-Nazi Terrorist.

When James "bullied" Snape, he didn't do anything to Snape which Snape hadn't already done to him, and undoubtedly many "Mudblood" students. Snape invented the spell that James used on him. Meaning that James was simply retaliating for prior incidents.

Details with chapter citations here:

https://www.quora.com/Is-there-evidence-in-the-Harry-Potter-books-that-Snape-was-a-bully-as-a-kid/answer/Nathan-Beard-6

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"It is like a finger pointing at the moon. Pay no attention to the finger or you will miss all that heavenly Glory"--Bruce Lee

"Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence."--Carl Sagan
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Post by Norc on Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:56 pm

Gandalf's Beard wrote:Snape was NOT an innocent victim when he went to Hogwarts.

He was a vicious little racist thug who was part of a gang of junior death munchers who terrorised muggleborns and molested girls with dark magic.

I can empathise with Snape's shitty home life before Hogwarts, but he was a horrific neo-Nazi youth at school and then he became a neo-Nazi Terrorist.

When James "bullied" Snape, he didn't do anything to Snape which Snape hadn't already done to him, and undoubtedly many "Mudblood" students. Snape invented the spell that James used on him. Meaning that James was simply retaliating for prior incidents.

Details with chapter citations here:

https://www.quora.com/Is-there-evidence-in-the-Harry-Potter-books-that-Snape-was-a-bully-as-a-kid/answer/Nathan-Beard-6
ah yes totally agree! and as eldy pointet out, a lot of the HP-fandom really loves Snaoe and i cannot figure out why. maybe for the same reason people romantizise christian gray? i do remember however when i read that plot-twist and being like really mind fucked and for a second really liking the snape character but yeah.. he is an asshole and a terrible teacher.. 

totally loving the norcing here.
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Post by Norc on Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:57 pm

Amarië wrote:Merlin's beard! Gandalf's beard! I guess it was the newsletter that lured you back?

I am afraid I agree that Harry and Hermione would have made a great couple. But that is food for fanfics, canon should remain canon.
... i read a great drarry fanfic once.
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Post by Norc on Mon Jan 21, 2019 9:00 pm

halfwise wrote:Hey - I thought turning Snape into the hidden hero of HP was one of JK's grandest accomplishments!
yes, a hidden hero. an asshole. but a redeeming asshole.
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Post by Amarië on Mon Jan 21, 2019 9:02 pm

Reminds me I wanted to ask what Eldy's ship is.

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Post by halfwise on Mon Jan 21, 2019 9:17 pm

Many people who are little shits as children grow out of it as they get older. I think Figgs has a good point about being cooped up in Hogwarts.

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Post by Eldy on Mon Jan 21, 2019 9:49 pm

Amarië wrote:Reminds me I wanted to ask what Eldy's ship is.

Aberforth/Aberforth's goat #believe
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Post by Mrs Figg on Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:07 pm

Shocked

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Post by Forest Shepherd on Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:59 am

rofl

(Hi GB)

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Post by halfwise on Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:17 pm

I just wanted to point out that for the first time in, I dunno, years at least....I woke up, looked at the Forum, and saw more entries in the Tolkien section than in the non-Tolkien section! :carrot:  Made me feel good, it did.

With Elthir and Lorient both reappearing we're out of our Who/politics rut!

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Post by Amarië on Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:31 pm

Yey!!

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Post by azriel on Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:10 pm

All I can say Halfy is, Variety. And there seems to be shed loads of it here Smile Im now starting to look forward to the new Tolkien film due out in this Spring. Im looking forward to it more than I did the Hobbshit, just hope I wont feel let down. IL chuck up if it goes all Hollywood glossy & airbrushed.

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