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Post by Eldorion on Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:14 am

Well at least they had more of a plan for how to get into Erebor then Gandalf had for how to get into Mordor in LOTR. Moon
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Post by Norc on Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:50 am

Laughing
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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:01 am

I think Gandalf was called the grey because he borrowed a leaf out of the Doctors book- "Its not a plan its a thing. Which is like a plan but greyer."  Very Happy 

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Post by Lancebloke on Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:03 am

So, when he was Gandalf the White (with dirty grey bits at the bottom), did he know what his plan was then?
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Post by Norc on Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:13 am

nope.
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Post by Bluebottle on Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:36 pm

His mind would still be blank, like a blank piece of paper. No?

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:44 pm

He had a plan, of sorts, hope to buggery Frodo somehow succeeded  Nod 

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Post by halfwise on Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:16 pm

liking the new signature gif, Lance.  Laughing 

Yep, as both Denethor and Boromir pointed out, the plan was pretty half assed. They never even talked about how to get into Mordor. Personally I would have ported around Cair Andros, hoped I could sneak through Osgiliath by boat, and then approached Mordor from the south. Got to be some passes through the mountains down there.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:24 pm

Going on Galadriels words Gandalf was making the plan up as he found out more about the situation, which is practical in an ever changing situation.
His plan seemed to be to get to Lothlorien, and then with Galadriel and Celeborn (the Wise after all) they would have come up with the next stage of the plan.
She says something about the Company looking for help and advice as Gandalf plainly intended to, or words to that effect.
But as he fell in Moria the company split before he could anything about it, and after that there was nothing he could do for the Frodo part of the plan, all he could do was carry out his half of the plan- to keep Sauron distracted and looking outwards from his own lands.

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Post by Eldorion on Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:07 pm

Maybe Gandalf planned to rendezvous with the Eagles at the edge of Mordor and so neither of those are actually plot holes after all? Question
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Post by Lancebloke on Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:16 pm

Thanks Halfy. Took me a few hours to do.
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Post by Tinuviel on Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:44 am

A question I've asked before and re-surfaced because of a video I just watched (see the Parody thread!): What in the name of Tolkien does Arwen's life have to do with Sauron? Because I'm pretty sure that was just something we had to accept. Luthien became mortal, but she didn't die because of Morgoth! She died more quickly because of the Silmaril, but her life force wasn't bound to it! So what was PJ's, or rather Boyen's thought process?

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Post by halfwise on Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:19 am

Where did PJ connect Arwen's life to Sauron's?

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Post by Eldorion on Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:15 am

halfwise wrote:Where did PJ connect Arwen's life to Sauron's?

http://www.ageofthering.com/atthemovies/scripts/returnoftheking29to32.php

ARAGORN: (bows) My lord Elrond

ELROND: I come on behalf of one whom I love. Arwen is dying. She will not long survive the evil that now spreads from Mordor. The light of the evenstar is failing. As Sauron’s power grows her strength wanes. Arwen’s life is now tied to the fate of the Ring. The Shadow is upon us Aragorn. The end has come.

ARAGORN: It will not be our end, but his.
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Post by Eldorion on Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:17 am

As for Tin's question, I have no idea what PJ and Co's thought process was here. It's one of the more out of left field things in ROTK, which is saying quite a bit. Shrugging
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Post by halfwise on Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:26 am

Now I remember that scene. I interpreted it "as Sauron's power grows her strength wanes" not as cause and effect but as simple coincidence: she's now mortal. From an elf's perspective it's all downhill. And everyone who's tied to middle earth is now tied to the fate of the ring. Since she can't leave, Elrond is more concerned with her and middle earth than ever.

I'll admit the more tightly connected reading is more apparent in the words, but for some reason I didn't get that from the scene.

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Post by Tinuviel on Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:33 am

Still don't understand why she's dying though. And even though she's "mortal," she outlives Aragorn, by a lot, so how does her becoming mortal now maker her any more mortal than she is in the future? Aragorn's mortal, hell everyone is technically mortal, and yet they aren't tied to the fate of the ring. I'd love to ask Boyens for a coherent explanation.

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Post by Eldorion on Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:34 am

I've considered the more general interpretation, but considering that Elrond speaks very specifically of Arwen and that she spents most of the middle of ROTK looking very pale and lying on her bed in what looks like a coma (maybe she was practicing for a stage version of Sleeping Beauty?), the more direct interpretation always seemed evident to me. Although one could argue that Arwen's coma-ness is due to "the life of the Eldar leaving [her]", as Elrond states earlier in the film, though that wouldn't explain why she seems fine after Sauron's defeat when she travels to Minas Tirith and is reunited with Aragorn.
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Post by Eldorion on Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:34 am

Tinuviel wrote:Still don't understand why she's dying though. And even though she's "mortal," she outlives Aragorn, by a lot, so how does her becoming mortal now maker her any more mortal than she is in the future? Aragorn's mortal, hell everyone is technically mortal, and yet they aren't tied to the fate of the ring. I'd love to ask Boyens for a coherent explanation.

cuz its more dramatic that way, duh Rolling Eyes

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:36 am

I was too bust banging my head off a wall by this point to give that too much thought.

But I prefer Halfy's reading of it as that at least moves the story a midges baw-hair closer to the original.


On the other hand Eldo and Tin are right in what they say so that brings me back to banging my head off a wall again, thanks Eldo and Tin!!!!  Evil or Very Mad

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Post by Tinuviel on Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:37 am

Mad Mad Mad This is the shit that makes me roll over in my grave, and I'm not even dead yet!!!!!

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Post by halfwise on Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:19 pm

If you've read any Victorian novels (no, not THAT kind!  Evil or Very Mad) you'll find that people are always taken to bed for months at a time after some kind of shock to the system.

It would be consistent with Tolkien's style that a general malaise in the world and a threat to a loved one would affect a sensitive and powerful person, but of course this would be giving entirely too much credit to this pack of writers.  I think they may have written it in the narrow way that Tin and Eldo read it, but the actors interpreted it in the broader sense - which is the interpretation I picked up.

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Post by Eldorion on Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:46 pm

I'm not entirely convinced that's not just wishful thinking, but it would be preferable to the way I've interpreted the scene. Razz
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Post by Tinuviel on Tue Feb 11, 2014 6:12 pm

Yeah, the way it's worded is too specific for me to just attribute her dying to fading. Elrond explicitly says her fate is bound to that of the ring. If worded differently, I might be able to give it some slack, but... Shrugging 

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Post by Music of the Ainur on Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:21 pm

Tinuviel wrote:The knife Beren used snapped after he cut off the one Silmaril. I'm not sure what else he could have done with just his bare hands. And it said it wasn't his fate to take anymore, that's why the knife snapped and a shard hit Morgoth, making him stir in his sleep. How could Beren or Luthien have killed him if a shard didn't even wake him up? And Luthien was spent, so she couldn't do anything. Love was what got them there, and as soon as the thought of greed entered their minds, they almost failed. Yes, Beren had a chance, but he would have ended up dead and not have killed Morgoth, thus ceasing the line he created with Luthien before they even had the chance to get married!

All very good points. And Manwe himself said No Vala could ever be slain by a mortal. So even laying there helpless it would seem it would be folly to try to kill him. But... did Beren know all this I wonder? I am not trying to dis the tremendous act of bravery and Love that they accomplished, please don't get me wrong. It just made me think. Here was the best chance anyone would ever have to try...

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