Movie Aesthetics

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Post by chris63 on Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:30 am

Maybe Wizards have broomsticks as well as witches Wink
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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:32 am

Nah or they wouldnt fly Eagle Airlines. Very Happy

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Post by chris63 on Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:50 am

Funny how Tolkien doesnt have witches in his books, never thought of it before.
Apart from the witch of the Golden wood, but she isnt a real witch. For Gimli to
mention a witch implies there were witches.
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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:54 am

Good point Chris. scratch Was whatshername, Queen Beruthiel, her with the cats not considered a bit of a witch? Lore! I need Lore!

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Post by Eldorion on Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:55 am

I think it comes down to terminology. When Tolkien talked about wizards he was talking about the Istari, of which there were (probably) only five, all male. Tolkien does have scattered references to sorcery and necromancy (especially with relation to Sauron and other servants of Morgoth and later Sauron). I'm not sure how consistent his conception of these ideas were over time, but I think the idea that there were magic-users other than the Istari was present at multiple phases. Presumably "witches" was a term for these people.
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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:59 am

Th Blue wizards were said to be repsonsible for being the source of much later magical stuff I seem to remember. Question is whether enough had passed for them to go into the east, be the founders of these 'mystery schools' and produce witches by the time of the events of LotR's. (At least ones with the hope of being termed 'white' as it were on the assumption any witches prior to the coming of the Istari would seem to have been a product of the Morgoth schools of magic)

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Post by Eldorion on Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:08 am

That's a very interesting point, Petty. Smile IIRC one account said the Blue Wizards went east in the mid-Second Age and another said it was around the same time that Saruman, Radagast, and Gandalf reached Middle-earth (c. 1000 Third Age). Even if it was the latter, there'd still be 2000 years for their ideas and traditions to propagate and spread throughout the East and come into contact with groups in the west such as Dwarves. Also worth noting is that the Dwarves were more geographically spread out, even in the east, than Elves or the Dunedain, so they might be more familiar with Eastern magic. study
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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:15 am

I hadn't considered the dwarven angle. Given the scarcity of dwarf women dwarf witches presumably would be even scarcer. But one things dwarves do seem to do is to spread news and technology about as they go so no reason they mught not spread other things too.

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Post by odo banks on Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:41 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I hadn't considered the dwarven angle. Given the scarcity of dwarf women dwarf witches presumably would be even scarcer. But one things dwarves do seem to do is to spread news and technology about as they go so no reason they mught not spread other things too.

I hope nothing unpleasant, or contagious! Shocked

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:53 pm

Well they are dwarves! Best keep your helmet on for safety. Shocked

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Post by Lorient Avandi on Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:02 am

Anyone ever wonder what happens to all of the horses the soldiers at the battle of the Morannon had? Or maybe only gandalf, Aragorn, and the gondorian flagbearer had one. I don't know who did but still, where did they go?
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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:18 am

There are a few horsemen apart from the main players if memory serves in the shots of the march to the Morannon, but it is only a few. The rest of the Gondorian army is marching on foot.
I wish they had kept the bit in where Aragorn sends the young and afraid back to guard the crossroads. A task within their measure and one for which they could take honour in. Shows his wisdom in such matters as a King before he is crowned and demonstrates why men were willing to follow him even in an apparent suicide mission. Sadly PJ and the Coven didn't really bother much with the book in RotK.

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Post by Orwell on Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:35 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Sadly PJ and the Coven didn't really bother much with the book in RotK.

Luckilly though, they did in the rest of the movies.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:36 am

That is a matter of opinion. Mine being flogging ain't good enough for them. Evil or Very Mad

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Post by Orwell on Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:48 am

[quote="Orwell"]
Pettytyrant101 wrote:Sadly PJ and the Coven didn't really bother much with the book in any of the movies.

I don't mean to be picky, but I edited the offending post. Saves any ambiguity. As Odo would say, Here to help! Very Happy

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Post by Lorient Avandi on Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:15 am

Well no matter how many horsemen there were originally, all the horses disappear right before orcs come out of the black gate. The mouth of sauron's body and horse also disappear.
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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:33 am

One of many errors like that in these films- throw it in with changing distances, preposterous physical acts, ridiculous character actions, appearing disappearing staffs and all the rest. Then do the right thing, and demand the burning of the Coven before they do likewise to TH.

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Post by Lorient Avandi on Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:12 am

Give examples of all of these. I have only caught the horses and the slaughter of all the helms deep elves
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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:28 am

Distances lots of examples- Pippin follows Denethor and Farmamir frm the courtyard, part of the way down the Citadel and along a long bridge to the Tombs. A distance Denthor runs on fire in a split second (plus the distance across the Courtyard). The Uruk-Hai who attack the Fellowship and kill Boroir move extremely fast given the point in the film at whhch they leave Isengard and whentthey meet the Fellowship.Almost no time passes between a scene between Arwen and Elrond and his arrival in Rohan.

Preoperous physical acts- hobbits being thrown from a decent height on top of a troll at force onto a stone floor wihtout so much as a bruise. Almost everything Legolas does in a fight- running about Mumakil, surfing on shields whilst firing arrows etc (its a huge extrapolation on what Tolkien says in the book about the grace and balance of elves).

Ridiculous character actions- Frodo sending Sam away in favour of Smeagol. Faramir taking Frodo prisoner then deciding to let him go right after he tries to give the Ring to the Nazgul. Denethor not lighting the beacons, or having any advisors or Captains or any apparent means of governing as well as being far to crazy.

Disappearing reappearing staffs- Nazgul blasts Gandalf's staff but he has it back (or an identical one) almost immediately afterwards. There are loads of contiuity errors betwen shots too. Gandalf's staff being up then at his side, then held up again, then at his side again as he enters Theodens Hall.

Theres more but those are just off the top of my head.

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Post by Lorient Avandi on Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:41 am

I hate how they made legolas. Hes just a crowd pleaser. Good looking for female Audiences then extremely overpowered for males. He never runs out of arrows and he has very little actual chararacter. The only thing I don't agree with you on is the faramir bit, don't really mindit except for how hd let's them go right after frodo tries to give it to the Nazgul, it makes no sense that he would let them go after that. The distances aren't really changed. The just shorten the screen time. It would be extremely boring if they actually showed the 20 seconds it took denethor to reach that jumping point. They just cut part of it out and skipped ahead, it's not like they turned him into Flash. Same with the uruks and elrond. They do stuff like that in movies all the time.
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Post by Orwell on Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:43 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Faramir taking Frodo prisoner then deciding to let him go right after he tries to give the Ring to the Nazgul. Denethor not lighting the beacons, or having any advisors or Captains or any apparent means of governing as well as being far to crazy.

In the book about Tolkien I've just recently finished reading, Tolkien is cited as saying that of all his characters, Faramir was most closely akin to Tolkien himself, personality wise, or so he saw himself (a super-Tolkien, of course, Tolkien was a humble imaginative type). Knowing this now is like rubbing salt in the wound when you think of what PJ did to the character.

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Post by Lorient Avandi on Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:44 am

A lot of things may seem good on paper, but would be really boring or unnecessary on-screen.

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Post by Orwell on Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:45 am

Lorient Avandi wrote:It would be extremely boring if they actually showed the 20 seconds it took denethor to reach that jumping point.

More boring showing it at all. Stupid scene.

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Post by Orwell on Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:47 am

Lorient Avandi wrote:A lot of things may seem good on paper, but would be really boring or unnecessary on-screen.

You'll find little agreement here with me, Lorient. Yes, not everything can be transformed from page to film, but excellent scripts and smart Directing can bring the true essence of things to the screen, and mirror the excitement and/or interest generating powers of the orignal work.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:53 am

The point with Denethor isnt really the time its the distance- how he possibly ran all that way on fire, burning to death? Its ridiculous. As to distance- well if you have just spent most of 2 films getting your characters from Rivendell to Rohan and visually showing how far it is, its a bit weird Elrond does it in a couple days it seems. Same goes for the Uruks- PJ shows us how long it takes when they are heading back yet they get from Isengard on the way out in way less time- not saying he has to show it but why not have them go out earlier leving enough time?

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