Faramir and other changes

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Post by halfwise on Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:55 pm

Actually, after giving Rohan to the future Rohirrim, I can't think of any time where Gondorian forces actually defended Rohan.  Given that, movie-Theoden's rant about Gondor may be somewhat justified.

Helm fortified Helm's deep during a war with the Dunlandings, I believe.  Did Gondor come to bail them out? Nope.

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Post by Eldorion on Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:58 pm

But Gondor did come help Rohan during that time, they were just delayed by the worst winter in the Third Age and the fact that they were being attacked up and down their entire coastline by the Corsairs at the same time as Rohan was being invaded.

Gondor and Rohan had a long history of bailing each other out (in the books, of course).
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Post by Mrs Figg on Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:04 pm

Gondor had left Theoden under the mercy of Saruman, he didnt have much reason to trust them.

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Post by Eldorion on Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:08 pm

Gondor and Rohan were being attacked at the same time from opposite directions, so I'm not sure what Gondor was supposed to do, especially considering they were facing the much stronger foe. Shrugging Besides, if we're going by the books, Gondor was Rohan's primary arms supplier and Theoden was half-Gondorian through his mother's side, was born in Gondor, and grew up speaking the language of Gondor even after his family returned to Rohan.

It's unclear how much of this is supposed to be different in the movies, though.
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Post by Lancebloke on Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:18 pm

Mrs Figg wrote:Gondor had left Theoden under the mercy of Saruman, he didnt have much reason to trust them.
Well, they didn't really. I don't know time frames but Gondor was already getting it's arse kicked by the time Saruman started being a nuisance. In the film version, they are talking about moving 500 men to defend a pass to the North.... if that is all they could spare for their own defence then they wouldn't be sending any force to help Rohan.
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Post by RA on Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:21 pm

Didn't Theoden grow up in Gondor? Or was that someone else? Suspect 

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Post by Eldorion on Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:23 pm

You remember correctly, RA. Smile Theoden's father Thengel moved to Gondor as a young man to get away from his father, but moved back to Rohan (reluctantly) to become King later on.  Theoden was born in Gondor, although was only five when his father became King.  However, Thengel spoke "the tongue of Gondor" (probably referring to Sindarin) even after his return to Rohan.


Last edited by Eldorion on Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:32 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : grammar)
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Post by RA on Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:27 pm

So Theoden not wanting to assist Gondor, a country they have an alliance with, makes even less sense. Oh whatever, at least Azog didn't chase them the whole way to there. Laughing 

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Post by Mrs Figg on Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:33 pm

Lancebloke wrote:
Mrs Figg wrote:Gondor had left Theoden under the mercy of Saruman, he didnt have much reason to trust them.
Well, they didn't really. I don't know time frames but Gondor was already getting it's arse kicked by the time Saruman started being a nuisance. In the film version, they are talking about moving 500 men to defend a pass to the North.... if that is all they could spare for their own defence then they wouldn't be sending any force to help Rohan.
I meant him personally.

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Post by bungobaggins on Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:42 pm

Eldorion wrote: In the movie, he leads a column of refugees protected only by his royal guard to Helm's Deep with the idea of hiding there, despite the fact that this means taking the civilian population across the open plains towards Saruman's advancing army.
This dumbass moment was brought to you in part by:

Peter Jackson

Philipa Boyens


and

Fran Walsh

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Post by Ringdrotten on Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:30 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Evil or Very Mad Yeah via telepathic email with Galadriel Evil or Very Mad 
I also strongly disliked how Elrond and Galadriel were able to communicate like that in TTT, but rereading LotR I came across something I had forgotten was in there (though I'm guessing many here haven't): when Gandalf, the hobbits and Elrond part with the Galadriel and the rest of the Lothlorien elves in RotK Gandalf and the elves communicate with eachother like this. I don't remember exactly how it was, but I think it was Frodo or one of the hobbits who observed them sitting in silence but speaking to each other all the same. They were sitting side by side, but as far as I know it doesn't say anywhere that this way of communicating doesn't work across large distances, so I've sort of accepted the scene with Elrond and Galadriel in TT. I still don't like it, but it's not as bad as a lot of other things Wink

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:37 pm

Its the distance thing- if they could do that (and leaving aside Galadriel appearing to teleport out in TH Mad ) there would have been no need for the palantirs.
I always saw it as more a means of communing directly with a person who is physically present, not a ME equivalent to phone call.
Galadriel does much the same in some fashion when she tempts each member of the Company in their thoughts.
But it doesn't appear she could have done that when they were say in Rohan, they have to be there.

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Post by halfwise on Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:56 pm

Also Elrond would not have to send messengers to Lothlorien to tell them the Fellowship was on the way, or Saruman send Radagast to find Gandalf.

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Post by Lancebloke on Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:07 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Its the distance thing- if they could do that (and leaving aside Galadriel appearing to teleport out in TH Mad ) there would have been no need for the palantirs.
I always saw it as more a means of communing directly with a person who is physically present, not a ME equivalent to phone call.
Galadriel does much the same in some fashion when she tempts each member of the Company in their thoughts.
But it doesn't appear she could have done that when they were say in Rohan, they have to be there.
I can't remember, but does she speak to Frodo as he enters in to Lothlorien like she does in the film... the 'one who has seen the eye' bit.
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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:18 pm

No thats PJ invented.

The first mention of the Ring in Lorien I think is actually made by Celeborn- "especially that one of the little folk who bears the burden," or words to that effect, and then Galadriel tells them they know of their quest.
I think the line about 'one who has seen the eye' is out of context in the film and comes from the Mirror of Galadriel scene, when he notices the elven ring when Sam cant seem to see it and she says something about things not being hidden from a ring bearer and one who has seen the eye- but Id really need to check that just going on memory here.

The real pisser about that bit in the film is she uses the line "you are the footstep of doom to us" totally out of context and without any meaning.
In the film you dont know why he is the footstep of doom to the elves and they never mention it again, its just a random bok line thrown in there for no reason- in the book it comes after she tells him that if he succeeds the elves and Lothlorien will fade and time will come there and sweep it away, and if he fails they will be enslaved, so either way is a loss.
I also get very crabbit that they leave out her description of the fight against evil as "the long defeat'. Thats such a beautiful poignant description.

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Post by Lancebloke on Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:37 pm

I'm sure she mentions something about the long defeat somewhere.... sure I saw that when I watched this earlier in the week.
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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:16 pm

Im pretty sure its not in there, or if it is not in the same way it is in the book.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:37 am

Faramir- as he should be-


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Post by Forest Shepherd on Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:00 am

"Now see HERE Captain! Let's cut to the point!"
 Smile 

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:17 am

Yeah Bill Nighy gets Sam spot on-  Sam speaking to Faramir as if he was a hobbit lad who had offered him some cheek, just as the book describes- perfectly pitched.

And Faramirs "tidings of death have many wings, and night oft brings news to near kindred" is exactly the sort of beautifully constructed dialogue the Coven seem to loathe so much and expunged from the film version  Mad

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Post by Tinuviel on Tue Mar 25, 2014 3:49 am

That was so much better! And I can't believe that was Bill Nighy! I need to listen to the whole thing one of these days... I've got to watch your edits at some point too Petty... I should make a list....

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:45 am

Yes you do Yer Maj.
I mean what happens if Im struck by a meteorite, or more likely fall down a hole whilst drunk?
You'll be saying to yourself "I wish I had got access to the purist edits before he did that".
Don't say I didn't warn you Yer Majesty.

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Post by halfwise on Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:56 pm

unfortunately the edits can't restore lost dialogue...or lost Faramir.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Mar 25, 2014 3:19 pm

Actually I did something about the latter, not, obviously to the glorious heights it should have been, that of the book, nor to the adapted levels of the BBC version, but at least to the point where it is no longer entirely inconsistent with the book version.
He is no longer just an artificial obstacle in the way, and there is no diversion to Osgiliath.

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Post by Mrs Figg on Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:13 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Faramir- as he should be-


sorry but thats truly awful. its fake and cod theatrical with zero authenticity. If thats how you think it should be done then I would have hated the films instead of loving them.
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