Faramir and other changes

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:57 pm

"sent back to Middle-earth as a companion to Gandalf"

Given that it seems odd he appears only at the Ford. If his role was a companion to Gandalf he might be expected to have helped out a bit more.

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Post by Elthir on Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:07 pm

It's also said that in Valinor Glorfindel had probably become a friend and follower of Olorin. The passage with 'companion' reads:

(the first page is missing, and the second page begins): '... as guards or assistants. An Elf who had once known Middle-earth and had fought in the long wars against Melkor would be an eminently suitable companion for Gandalf. We could then reasonably suppose that Glorfindel (possibly as one of a small party, more probably as a sole companion) landed with Gandalf-Olorin about Third Age 1000.'

The idea was superseded in any case, although in the second essay Glorfindel is still said to have become a follower and friend of Olorin. Another note indicates that Tolkien was willing to add description about Glorfindel (I'm not sure where: in some theoretical new edition, or some new publication I guess) -- something to help flesh out the new idea of his arriving to help Gil-galad and Elrond.

So possibly he intended to do something similar had the first idea stuck.
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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:16 pm

I had a look in the Tolkien companion it lists Glorfindel as follows;
"One of the Noldor who had returned to Middle- Earth in Exile during the Elder Days. Of the House of Finarphir, leader of the Host of Rivendell and one of Elrond's chief councellors. He was responsible for the defence of Rivendell during the years while Arthedain declined and he led a force to the Battle Of Fornost, when his timely appearance completed the rout of Angmar. He discouraged pursuit of the Witch-King, foretelling that the doom of the Witch-King lay in the future when it would not be dealt 'by the hand of man.' These words were long remembered."

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Post by Tinuviel on Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:15 am

So how can this be the same Glorfindel if he was killed by that Balrog in his first "life"? How does that work? Unless I'm not understading this correctly...

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Post by Elthir on Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:39 am

Tinuviel wrote: So how can this be the same Glorfindel if he was killed by that Balrog in his first "life"? How does that work? Unless I'm not understading this correctly...

Glorfindel died but was incarnated again by the Valar and sent back to Middle-earth. Some form of reincarnation for the Elves existed as far back as Tolkien's early tales (The Book of Lost Tales), so this was not a new or unusual concept; the difficulty with Glorfindel was that he was a Noldorin Exile and not allowed back in Valinor -- but Tolkien explained why he (in particular) was allowed, and he became once again an incarnate being -- rehoused in a new but identical hroa (hroa roughly translates as 'body').


Some Companions might only incorporate what Tolkien himself published, or what Tolkien published plus the constructed Silmarillion, and if so will not provide the conclusion from JRRT's two late texts, in which he decides that there was only one Glorfindel.
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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:18 am

Come awards season in Forumshire I rather think Eldo might have some proper competition for the Lore Master award! Should be good. Very Happy
I find the companion I have by J.E. A. Tyler to be very useful as a start point for research but as, like me its geting on (published in 1976) its not quite up to date with later released papers and works of Tolkien.

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Post by Elthir on Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:24 am

Ah, that explains the missing Gondolin parts I guess. I note Tyler's 'of the house of (ultimately) Finarfin' part, probably because of Glorfindel's golden hair, even though his house isn't actually stated (the closest we get is some sort of kinship with Turgon).

I have Robert Foster's early Companion, also published before the 1977 Silmarillion came out. One thing I like about these early books is that they don't get muddled up with all the later 'unpublished' (by JRRT) stuff, even if the really early companions might get some things 'wrong' compared to what JRRT said elsewhere, or later.

I love delving into the unpublished works, but in some cases, or sometimes, I think it's good to strip it away as well. The good thing about Glorfindel is that there is only ever one of him when looking at what Tolkien published (The Lord of the Rings), and only one again when looking at what he didn't publish (himself), meaning the Silmarillion, and hitting public bookshelves much later, the Glorfindel essays.

It works out somewhat neatly Wink

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Post by Tinuviel on Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:29 pm

Alright, that makes more sense. But how does one exactly kill a Balrog? Or who can kill one? Becasue it seems that only the most powerful beings can kill them, but if Glorfindel was just an elf....?

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:38 pm

"With his last failing senses Frodo heard cries, and it seemed to him that he saw, beyond the Riders that hestitated on the shore, a shining figure of white light...." -Flight to the Ford

"'And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against the Seen and Unseen they have great power.'
'I thought that I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?'
'Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn. He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes.' - Many Meetings

Basically Tin he's just really, really cool! Cool

PJ should never have left him out nor the scene where he comes as a shining light to drive the remaining Nazgul into the river. I hate they took that idea and gave it to Arwen to make her all shiny instead. Evil or Very Mad

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Post by Ringdrotten on Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:06 pm

Agreed, Glorfindel is such a great character. Tolkien's description of him leaves you in awe, and he's not even in the film Mad

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Post by Elthir on Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:16 am

Late in life JRRT noted that the duel with Glorfindel and the demon may need revision. I find this a somewhat humorous statement, because the only detailed account of this battle was written very early, well before Balrogs were Maiar or had cloaks of shadow for instance (avoiding the 'wing' issue here).

Back in the (only detailed version of the) Fall of Gondolin, if I recall correctly Glorfindel sliced an arm and stabbed the demon (it was twice Glorfindel's height), and both fell off a cliff to their deaths, the Balrog dragging Glorfindel with him by his golden hair. More Balrogs were killed in this early version, some by Tuor I think.

Tolkien never got around to an updated version of Glorfindel's duel however, nor Ecthelion's, although we can see evidence in texts written after The Lord of the Rings that he at least still imagined these Elves slaying Balrogs in any case.


I've seen as least one person raise the possibility that Glorfindel was going to fight a demon of some kind, but not necessarily a Balrog! This suggestion was based on the admittedly somewhat odd revision of the word Balrog to 'demon' in a late text (where Glorfindel's foe is consistently referred to as a demon). By this point Tolkien had imagined the orc-formed Maiar, which might be more formidable than Orcs but lesser than Balrogs. I'm not sure the revision from Balrog to 'demon', however curious, meant that JRRT was abandoning such a long held concept! but in any case the option was open to him if he thought Balrogs had become too powerful...

... but if Pippin can slay a mighty torog for instance Wink

And as Pettytyrant noted already, when we have mighty Elves that had lived in Aman perhaps even demons of might might not take victory for granted.
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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:23 am

"or had cloaks of shadow for instance (avoiding the 'wing' issue here)."- Elthir

Never saw the argument there- they have wings of shadow- perfect for intimidating your enemy, impression your orc followers and looking cool in front of the female Balrogs but absoutely pants if you're plunged into an abyss by a cocky old wizard (shadows having such a rubbish wind resistance!)

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Post by Ringdrotten on Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:29 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote: female Balrogs

The kind that starts to look nice after a few pints of this and a couple of shots of that? Laughing

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:40 am

I think even I would have to drink an unpresidented quantity of buckie before I'd saunter over to a female balrog and her ask what she's having! Although there can be something to be said for a lady with a whip! Shocked

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Post by Ringdrotten on Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:42 am

Where there's a whip there's a way Wink

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:47 am

Very Happy The fire thing could be a problem, I imagine (why I am imagning this I aint so sure Shocked ) in the 'heat' of passion if you hit the spot things might get very 'hot' indeed! (How on earth did we turn this perfectly scholarly debate into sex with a Balrog?- I blame you Ringdrotten if only because my reputation is bad enough already!)

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Post by Ringdrotten on Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:51 am

There must be something wrong with the water in Forumshire these days.. Not sure where these ideas are coming from scratch

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:53 am

"There must be something wrong with the water in Forumshire these days"

Yeah mines got no buckie in it. Definetly something wrong.

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Post by Ringdrotten on Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:00 am

So that's why I haven't been able to think straight recently! Mad

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:01 am

It'll be Admins fault. Him or PJ its always one or the other. Wink

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Post by Ringdrotten on Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:05 am

It feels good to have someone to blame Smile

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Post by Tinuviel on Fri Jun 17, 2011 5:13 am

Rolling Eyes Leave it to buckie to completely derail a thread

Ok, so Glorfindel is really cool. I think I'm going to go reread the bit with him in FOTR now Smile

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Post by Eldorion on Fri Jun 17, 2011 5:18 am

Come on you guys, Elthir here is trying to have a respectable, serious Lore thread and you're talking about sex with Balrogs. Laughing Razz What would Odo and the Respectabilians say?
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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:53 am

In an attempt to bring this back on topic after Ringdrottens disgraceful devation (Shame on you Ringdrotten! Wink ) what is 'torog' Elthir? "powerful demon"?
I always thought of Balrogs as demons, demons of Melkor. Fire spirits he turned to evil.

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Post by Ringdrotten on Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:14 pm

I am ashamed of myself Embarassed Please, do carry on with the respectable discussions!

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