Faramir and other changes

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Post by Elthir on Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:44 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote: '(...) what is 'torog' Elthir? "powerful demon"? I always thought of Balrogs as demons, demons of Melkor. Fire spirits he turned to evil.

As you know already, Balrog means 'demon of might, mighty demon', but unfortunately Tolkien does not go beyond torog 'troll' in Words, Phrases and Passages, and it's possible that -raug 'demon' is not necessarily involved here, as Sindarin torog might (or might not) hail from an older word *turuca (which might yield *turca 'strong, powerful' in Quenya, noting Turcafinwe).

In general I've seen stabs at formerly unknown examples go off the mark -- only known to be off the mark after 'new' information appeared.

So I'm going with 'troll' Very Happy
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Post by Saradoc on Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:32 pm

All your posts make very interesting reading Elthir! Thank you! Hopefully we'll see more of you and the other 'loremasters' here having a few discussions. It really is fascinating stuff!

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:40 am

We used to have quite a few Tolkien lore debates about here, mainly before the move, but no reason some of those debates shouldn't be reaired as more members come along. So if anyone wants to begin any go for it.

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Post by leelee on Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:15 am

Ringdrotten wrote:I am currently re-reading The Lord of the Rings (in Norwegian this time), and I became suddenly aware of an interesting fact: when I read, I imagine some characters to look like they do in the films, while other characters are different (that is, I have my own ideas of what they look like). For instance, Gandalf looks like Gandalf from the films when I read, while Gimli is completely different. I can only guess that this is because I feel that some characters (such as Gandalf) were adapted more truthfully, while others (Gimli and more) were changed too drastically.

How do you picture the characters from the books when you read? Are the faces from the films dominating, or do you have ideas of your own? Or do you, like me, have a little mix of both?

Such an absorbing question. Because I saw the first and second movie before I ever read LOTR, I must say Frodo, Sam, Galadriel, Aragorn,and Gollum especially were impressed upon my mind. Later though I was able to think a bit differently,and even now I see different faces in my imagination as I read along. The elves were different in some ways, more ancient Irish as I have studied the faces to be, And now, because the sad truth is that Frodo was older and chubbier I am able to imagine the dear Hobbits as they were penned, though it does grieve me Elvish heart in a way, for I should have thought that they were just a tad sleeker from working the land and the good food they enjoyed. But when you realize they 'filled in the corners' while listening to Bilbo's speech AFTER they had gorged themselves, well. Being an absolute elf in my heart I don't like the idea of overindulgence as a way of life at all, to me it dulls the senses and prevents one from being able to accomplish hard things, great things in the world that need doing. When you think of Aragorn and how he could fast, the elves and how they could endure so much and how they alone , not the dear Hobbits saved everyone as well as three little hobbits who,when they went without and tasted of fear and hardship accomplished victory under Illuvatar, well.
So yes I can see the characters differently. Somehow, because of the way The Hobbit was written, it is almost as if the Hobbits were little pets in a way and even Gandalf looked at them in amazement and amusement. If any of you have ever visited Club Penguin, you might get the idea after a bit that their puffles are some what Hobbity in their adorable manner.
I think Aeowyn who I identified the most with after Frodo on his quest, I think she looked about right. Arwen, though I love Liv, no, nor Galadriel and Celeborn, they don't look right to me. Nor Aragorn. And his accent, it was so on and off it was distracting. though his gentleness was lovely.
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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:23 am

I think part of what Tolkien is saying is that hobbits are fat, soft and fond of home comforts and yet they are still capable of remarakable deeds 'at a pinch'. For Tolkien I would imagine this reflected very much what he found in the trenches of WW1, ordinary men more used to a quiet pint on a Sunday afternoon watching the local cricket or football team pushed to endure extrodinary hardship and fear, facing their death every moment and yet rising to that challenge or at the least enduring it (sadly i suspect he also saw those who endure by delighting in the horror and the death, the orcs of our world).
I agree entirely about Viggo's mysterious accent, it swings quiet wildly from something approaching Irish to Scandinavian and several other places I've yet to identify!

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Post by Ringdrotten on Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:43 am

Must be because English isn't my first language, but I never noticed that about Mortensen's accent! I'll try to listen more carefully the next time I watch the films.

Interesting points you both raise on hobbits, by the way. I like the WW1 comparison, that makes a lot of sense. And what you said, leelee, about how the good things in life taste better if you work for them, I fully agree. Even the small things. Just the other day a friend of mine and I were out camping. We were standing on the one side of this lake, and we spotted a nice spot on the other side. We agreed that we'd walk the extra mile or two and camp there instead. Only it turned out to be 3-4 miles, and when we got there it was all just a bloody marsh. So we had tried another spot - the same all over again, marsh, marsh, marsh. We ended up spending so much time walking through marshes that when we finally found a suitable spot, our shoes and socks and most of our clothes were soaking wet. Still, the food we cooked on that fire tasted better than I can ever remember food tasting Very Happy Not a tale of war and hardships, perhaps, but just an example that even the smallest pleasures taste so much better if you've worked for them.

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Post by leelee on Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:19 pm

I agree Petty, in fact Tolkien, I think in one of his letters said the common 'person' or in this case Samwise was the ultimate hero in the story because he was an undistinguished Hobbit who just like that is pulled away from home and served under another ordinary hobbit and through their inborn courage never usually tested or used, end up doing quite the impossible under God and the world is saved, then he goes home unsung and takes up where he left off and marries and raises a family and the world goes on the same as always. The war tatooed itself, its horrors and tiny triumphs on the professor's mind forever.

Ringdrotten, that was lovely and true. Being a Messianic Jewess I hold the Mass like Tolkien did as sacred and the host as holy and nourishing as the Elves 'waybread' and it was after Mass one day that I knew in my heart I had to do more than the usual street work. I was passing a destitute young man and something about his countenance broke my heart. He was clean and neat and there was such a kindness in his eyes. I gave him the last money I had to give for the day and he said he had been praying for just that sum so he could get a certain thing. We began talking though I confess it is hard for me to talk to men other than my family, I am very shy that way. He told me his dream was to get to a huge city on the coast but had not found work or a way to get there. But he was a patient sort. He also told me he was going to feed his younger friend whose mother had been told by her boyfriend "me or your kid' She chose the boyfriend so T....had been caring for C and they lived in the park. I decided to bring them dinner each night in the park, hot if possible for that is a luxury to them. As taught in St. James to learn how others suffer by suffering with them, I also decided to eat only the same number of meals as those two go which was basically what I brought. After only a week I was sniffling, cold always and weary just like they were. I prayed for extra work to pay for tickets for them to get to Vancouver and the very next day I was offered a painting job( Iused to paint houses) for around six hundred or so. I rejoiced, did the work , got paid and came in the dark of an early morning to the bus stop. There sat the two, trusting in my coming. I gave them the ticket money and spending money and T a st. Benedict medal, he loved them, and suddenly my heart felt broken at their leaving. I gave them the name of the Nigerian Priest who would take them in and help them along. Then came a dreadful dirty and 'known' in the city as a bad hat who took from people and was a user. He wandered up to me to beg money. T rebuked him and then took out his own newly aquired money and gave the man some and told him not to try to use anybody else. The bus pulled out with my dearest boys on it and as they waved at me tears came down my face. But Ringdrotten when I got home and knew I could eat breakfast it was plain because I was tired and not well , but it tasted so wonderful , better than any food or drink I could remember. I can just see you and your friend and that is a poignant picture.


Last edited by leelee on Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:22 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)
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Post by Ringdrotten on Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:03 pm

Touching story, leelee - I feel like a lousy person now Embarassed I'm glad you found your way here, I've been enjoying your posts a lot (even if they sometimes stir me up quite a bit!) Smile

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Post by leelee on Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:23 pm

No no no Ringdrotten, you missed my point. I feel lethal today, should not pick up a pen or even think lest I wreck things. Smile No, no, the point was that when something comes hard WHATEVER IT IS, the end result is a sharpening of the senses, something magical happens and we appreciate what was common place before. I have done what I did many times, but it was that specific time that afterwards everything was splendid to me. What you wrote was beautiful to me because it sang of friendship, going out of the door as Bilbo Baggins said and your collective feet went on adventure, that in itself is pure magic. The wear and tear of life make some of us not do that sort of thing a lot , and obviously even Tolkien set that apart as awesome, one of the finest experiences of life. That was my point dear you.
Stir you up eh? Yes I seem to do that. That is why some times my invitations to parties are scarce!
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Post by Ringdrotten on Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:41 pm

And you missed my point I think Wink What I meant was that you made me feel lousy/bad because I don't do what you do enough - help those who need it. And Tolkien's works is one of the reasons why I love going outdoors for a few hours, or even days - he's been an inspiration to me for many things Smile

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Post by leelee on Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:24 pm

Ah what a dear you are. Come, tell me about you, I should like to know.
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Post by Ringdrotten on Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:16 am

There's not much to say about me, really! This should sum it up neatly: I love listening to or reading a good book, watching a good TV show or a film and I love spending as much time as I can fishing, hiking and camping (preferably with some good company!) Wink And I rarely say no to the occasional buckie party with friends and fair ladies Smile

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Post by leelee on Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:27 am

Well then you sound a peaceable chap, and perhaps patient, for I don't honestly have in my aquaintance, outside of those in uni or college , any men who enjoy reading a book for its sake. When I can I shall delve a little deeper, for the top layer is lovely. Thank you.
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Post by Orwell on Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:46 am

Club Penguin? I think I will visit it...

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Post by Orwell on Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:56 am

Disney Club Penguin... Ahh.... I thought it was a "Penguin Books" forum, perhaps some sort of ultra-literary-highbrow-cynicalist book reading group, not just a safe place for children to play. Sadly, whenever I see "safe" internet places for children, I keep my chilldren under close observation! My kids learn the difference between what's phony and what's not by watching South Park and American Dad... That's education. Suspect

Also - leelee, please tell me, what is this stuff about you being a Messianic Jewess who practices Mass? Are you teasing us, leelee? I swear, I'm intrigued. Question Question Question

Or is it me missing the joke now? (If so, I tip my hat to you! Very Happy )

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Post by Ringdrotten on Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:50 pm

leelee wrote: I don't honestly have in my aquaintance, outside of those in uni or college , any men who enjoy reading a book for its sake.

Well, you have come to a place where all the men enjoy reading books Wink

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Post by Tinuviel on Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:55 pm

So last night, me and 2 friends went to go see TT EE in the theater. We were having a jolly good time, at it was at the part wher Faramir was talking about the Easterling he had just killed, when suddenly, the movie went black, and then the sound stopped. Confused, my friends and I thought it was an intermission, so we went to go get some snacks. While we were walking, we discovered that all of the movies had gone out. Downstairs, we learned that there was a tornado warning! I thought it quite funny that a horrible storm came the day TT was playing Suspect Conicidence? I think not! I hold either Tolkien's ghost, or the Valar responsible.

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Post by Ringdrotten on Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:57 pm

Or Petty Suspect Shame about the movie, though!

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Post by Tinuviel on Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:26 pm

It was ok actually, we got to finish it after 15minutes of waiting Very Happy

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:35 pm

"Or Petty"-Ringdrotten

"Petty's arm will have grown long indeed if it can bring down tornados to trouble Tin in Valinor"
"Petty's arm has grown long."

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Post by Ringdrotten on Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:37 pm

lol!

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Post by Eldorion on Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:09 pm

Orwell wrote:Disney Club Penguin... Ahh.... I thought it was a "Penguin Books" forum, perhaps some sort of ultra-literary-highbrow-cynicalist book reading group, not just a safe place for children to play.

I thought the same thing, actually. Laughing
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Post by Eldorion on Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:11 pm

It's awesome that you got to see TTT in theatres, Tin! Very Happy Sorry about the power outage, though it sounds like it happened at the proper time in the movie. I saw the film yesterday too but I would have liked it if ours had an intermission so I could get up and stretch my legs, though it was still a lot of fun. The Battle of Helm's Deep looked even greater on the big screen. Cool
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Post by Ringdrotten on Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:25 pm

Talking of awesomeness in the theatres - the big theatres in Norway are planning on showing all the Harry Potter films in one go before the premiere of the last film Very Happy I'd be thrilled if half of them weren't shitty films, but I'm still considering it Very Happy

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Post by Eldorion on Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:55 pm

I heard that there's a single theatre in Houston doing that, but I have no way of getting there. Sad I'm not sure if I could sit through eight films straihgt, even if all of the HP films were good (and you're right, they're not Razz ), but it would definitely be cool. Very Happy
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