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Post by Eldorion on Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:30 pm

I find hearing a variety of opinions from people with different perspectives -- including people who are not particularly invested in the series, since that's where the vast majority of the audience are coming from -- to be in and of itself meaningful and interesting.
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Post by azriel on Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:33 pm

I agree with Eldo on this one Very Happy It helps me get thru the day when I hear someone neutral about the films speak up, helps me get a different view, much like in Dead Poets Society, when Robin Williams as teacher got the class to stand on their desks & see things another way Very Happy

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Post by Forest Shepherd on Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:40 pm

Well OK.
I think what I need to do then is to go re-watch their Hobbit reviews, and watch their BotFA one when it comes out, and perhaps I will see what you mean.
Otherwise, we simply have different opinions on this. Right now, the only possible value I can see in their review of the trilogy lies in how they compare it to other recent films and any inside knowledge they may have about film-industry things or technological advancements.

As relates to the story and the book and the adaptation process, which is what interests me (I mean, that's why I'm here!) I don't find their opinions worthwhile. There are so many other reviews out there related to these movies that the opinion of laymen who are not invested, as you say, is relatively useless.

But I think you have a bigger picture view of these things Eldo. Ultimately, I care about the opinions of myself, the people on here, and some of my family members. The general audiences can go bugger off, as they watch all kinds of horrible things!


P.S.
For the sake of argument, are we sure that this lack of investment in the series is really prevalent among audience-members this December? I would think that the majority of them would have watched the first two films by now.

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Post by azriel on Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:44 pm

Wonder what it must feel like to go to the cinema on the last episode when you havent even watched the first 2 ? I dont think Ive ever done that, ( on TV I mean ) If I havent seen the first one or, two, then I wont bother as I feel Ive a lot of catching up to do, & understanding.

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Post by Forest Shepherd on Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:46 pm

I watched the final Harry Potter film with someone who hadn't read the books or seen the first 7 films. I don't understand not caring about what you see in a cinema, but this person was really weird.

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Post by Eldorion on Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:53 pm

Typically the value of any reviewer comes down to (1) whether you agree with them on a regular basis and can use their reviews as a guide for what to see, and (2) whether you find their perspective to be entertaining and/or informative. For me, personally, HITB fulfills both criteria, but I can see how others disagree and I respect that.

As for general audiences' level of invest in the films, I'd imagine that most of them have seen the first two, but they probably haven't thought about the films much over the past year. That doesn't mean they won't be able to remember the basics of the plot and follow the action, but they probably won't have spent so long breaking down, analyzing, and debating the movie as people on here have. That's gonna lead to a different perspective on the final film, I think, regardless of whether any given individual enjoys it or not.
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Post by bungobaggins on Fri Nov 14, 2014 6:04 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I find Plinketts reviews of the ST films and the SW films to be exceptionally in depth and well thought out.
The styling of the character of Plinkett might not be to all tastes, but I think the depth of the reviews is among the best on the net.

I am less keen on the Half and a Bag general reviews, they can be insightful and often funny, But I am less keen on wading through their subpar 'sketch' material that they surround and pad their reviews with. I just want to hear the review. Out of 20 odd minutes of review usually about half of it is wasted on them amusing each other in a very self serving manner.

When's the next Plinkett review? Nobody likes Half in the Bag. You fucks!

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Post by bungobaggins on Fri Nov 14, 2014 6:08 pm

Eldorion wrote:As for general audiences' level of invest in the films, I'd imagine that most of them have seen the first two, but they probably haven't thought about the films much over the past year.  That doesn't mean they won't be able to remember the basics of the plot and follow the action, but they probably won't have spent so long breaking down, analyzing, and debating the movie as people on here have.  That's gonna lead to a different perspective on the final film, I think, regardless of whether any given individual enjoys it or not.

This became quite evident to me when my brother had no fucking clue what Thorin's name was, even though he had seen the first two films. Nod

For all the screen time that the titular hobbit has gotten, or not gotten, I wonder if he remembers Bilbo's name. scratch affraid

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Post by azriel on Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:43 am

Looking at a gif of Smaug this morning I thought, if, Smaugs head is this small, ( ratio of eye to nose ) how come his head when he finally emerges is so fooking large & T-Rex like ? going by this shot his head & body should be smaller ? And certainly, I think, not as Chinese New Year Dragon-ish ?

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:08 pm

Smaugs too big. The caverns too big. The amount of gold is stupendously too big.
Compensating PJ?

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Post by parzival on Fri Nov 21, 2014 3:52 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Smaugs too big. The caverns too big. The amount of gold is stupendously too big.
Compensating PJ?

Yeah, the DOS EE appendices go into this quite a bit.  It's bewildering to watch Jackson make bad decisions over and over again to the dismay of his production team.  They made the trailer for DOS, and that's when he decided Smaug was too small.  They had to rebuild digital Erabor, and one guy even explains that Smaug moving around inside it is actually physically impossible (wings going through columns and stuff), but that the audience won't care because you won't see it.  Yeah, well, that sucks.  Thanks for pointing out how stupid it is, WETA guy.  

The whole Smaug/Erabor too big too much gold thing encapsulates everything that bothers me about these films.  Jackson's insistence on making things look and feel different than the way Tolkien describes is endlessly annoying.  The amount of gold is ponderously stupid.  I was looking forward to seeing Bilbo cautiously walking towards a hot and stifling red glow with the sound of Smaug breathing, only to find a dragon sleeping atop a mountain of treasure.  But that's exactly what this bloated 3 film adaptation somehow can't fit.  

The last straw for me on the EE was watching Jackson make a last minute decision to remove Smaug's front two legs (after his entire design team and John Howe spent 2 years perfecting him with four legs), because he thought Smaug looked like a dog with wings.  The idea of Smaug being able to use his front two legs/arms to gesture as he speaks would have added an awesome kind of intelligence to him.  But instead we got the same kind of dragon we've seen in almost every movie about dragons;  he was of course beautifully rendered and Cumberbatch is amazing.  But to 180 on your team at the last minute is ridiculous.  John Howe looked like he was mad about having to change Smaug's entire biology to make it work.   But in the end Jacksons's decision really saved the day, because he really looks like a dog with wings here.
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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Fri Nov 21, 2014 3:59 pm

I much prefer four legs- the dog like appearance is their own fault- had they given Smaug the sort of body Tolkien describes and draws he would be longer and thinner, more wyrm like. The dog like appearence comes from making Smaug so stocky and mammal based instead of lizard based.

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Post by halfwise on Fri Nov 21, 2014 4:00 pm

I'm not sure I'd be able to stand listening to the EE appendices. In LotR they made me more forgiving of the changes from Tolkien, in the Hobbit it sounds like it would have the opposite effect.

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Post by parzival on Fri Nov 21, 2014 4:25 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I much prefer four legs- the dog like appearance is their own fault- had they given Smaug the sort of body Tolkien describes and draws he would be longer and thinner, more wyrm like. The dog like appearence comes from making Smaug so stocky and mammal based instead of lizard based.

I think the Smaug illustration above looks pretty magnificent. Most depictions of Smaug, INCLUDING TOKIEN'S AND JOHN HOWE's, give him four legs. I don't want to belabor the point, but what aggravates me the most is that Jackson's decision was arbitrary. The idea that a Smaug with four legs would have looked stupid is insulting. He probably would have looked incredible.
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Post by parzival on Fri Nov 21, 2014 4:29 pm

halfwise wrote:I'm not sure I'd be able to stand listening to the EE appendices.  In LotR they made me more forgiving of the changes from Tolkien, in the Hobbit it sounds like it would have the opposite effect.

It's enlightening.  The production is no less grand, but the magic between the production teams, the idea that everyone felt they were working on something ground breaking, is all but replaced with a sense of cold, logistical meandering.  That, and people doing a lot of joking around on their indoor greenscreen sets.

Actually it's worth seeing just for the section on Beorn's house, which was stunning.  Of course most of it never made it to the film so whatever.
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Post by azriel on Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:55 am

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Post by Forest Shepherd on Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:25 pm

parzival wrote:I think the Smaug illustration above looks pretty magnificent.  Most depictions of Smaug, INCLUDING TOKIEN'S AND JOHN HOWE's, give him four legs.  I don't want to belabor the point, but what aggravates me the most is that Jackson's decision was arbitrary.  The idea that a Smaug with four legs would have looked stupid is insulting.  He probably would have looked incredible.  

parzival wrote:But in the end Jacksons's decision really saved the day, because he really looks like a dog with wings here. 


Aren't those statements in direct contradiction of each other?  scratch


Hm, where is that picture from Azriel? I don't remember Bilbo carrying a goose into the mountain, so it must not be from Tolkien.

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Post by azriel on Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:05 am

No Forest its not from Tolkien but, I was focusing more on the dragon & thinking how Smaugish it was ( to me ) Very Happy

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Post by Forest Shepherd on Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:18 am

Oh yeah, of course!

I can't quite tell if its expression is pleasant or malevolent.

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Post by azriel on Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:50 pm

I think, as its a Dragon & not to be trusted, that he's being tricksy. Gets your confidence then bites your head off Smile

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Post by halfwise on Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:54 pm

Forest Shepherd wrote:
parzival wrote:I think the Smaug illustration above looks pretty magnificent.  Most depictions of Smaug, INCLUDING TOKIEN'S AND JOHN HOWE's, give him four legs.  I don't want to belabor the point, but what aggravates me the most is that Jackson's decision was arbitrary.  The idea that a Smaug with four legs would have looked stupid is insulting.  He probably would have looked incredible.  

parzival wrote:But in the end Jacksons's decision really saved the day, because he really looks like a dog with wings here. 


Aren't those statements in direct contradiction of each other?  scratch


I think Parzival was being sarcastic here.

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Post by Eldorion on Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:42 pm

Forest Shepherd wrote:I can't quite tell if its expression is pleasant or malevolent.

Smaug be like: Smugdog
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Post by malickfan on Wed May 03, 2017 12:03 pm

Some of the four legged designs may have made Smaug look too much like a Dog, but it would have still probably been better the the fat Hedehog Cat thing in the '77 Hobbit

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Post by azriel on Wed May 03, 2017 12:20 pm

Who thought a cats fuzzy mush would conjure up fear & loathing ? Very Happy

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Post by Forest Shepherd on Sat May 06, 2017 5:14 pm

I don't know what you mean, that design is banging!

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