History of the Hobbit

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Re: History of the Hobbit

Post by Eldorion on Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:49 pm

I think that we were on to something in the old CATCHAT thread. Tolkien must have had curtains that were ruined by cats. It's the only explanation for his vitriol towards them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cats_of_Queen_Berúthiel

She had nine black cats and one white, her slaves, with whom she conversed, or read their memories, setting them to discover all the dark secrets of Gondor, so that she knew those things 'that men wish most to keep hidden', setting the white cat to spy upon the black, and tormenting them. No man in Gondor dared touch them; all were afraid of them, and cursed when they saw them pass.
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Re: History of the Hobbit

Post by Orwell on Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:43 am

Ally wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Eldorion wrote:I liked Sauron when he was a cat (Book of Lost Tales). Very Happy

Can't agree, Eldo - and not sure I remember... Very Happy I see you let the bat out of the bag though! Still, great name that: "Thu"! cheers


beautiful evening to burn to death in an old wedding dress in a mansion I agree Orwell Very Happy

There is a place Ally where the young and the old make love long after death! Very Happy

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Re: History of the Hobbit

Post by Elthir on Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:28 pm

Orwell wrote: (...) But what I'll do is wait until I read the section concened, Elthir, and - who knows? - maybe when encountered in full HotH context, I might know an epiphany and understand what Rateliff means exactly, and how and why ---and agree or not agree with him then.

No problem. I think I can provide the context well enough for anyone else, although the book itself is best of course: Rateliff begins by noting that the Woodland King's hair is golden, and that this is interesting given Tolkien's later statements that the Vanyar are mostly golden-haired, not the Third Kindred or Teleri (the Woodland King is of this clan). Then he notes that it's not certainly known when Tolkien landed on this idea however (about which I agree)...

'It is not known, however, at what point Tolkien made that decision, and there is some evidence that he originally conceived of the Second Kindred or Noldor (the Deep-elves) as Golden haired: in the genealogies...'

So this digression about the Noldor and golden hair is intended to suggest that the later rules were probably not always in play. JDR will then digress about the Noldor in order to provide his evidence (as I posted earlier), and then he goes on:

'It's possible that the final determination that only the Vanyar (the First Kindred) were golden-haired actually postdates The Lord of the Rings: the earliest example cited by Christopher Tolkien dates from 1951, after The Lord of the Rings was finished but before its publication.'


Then he notes that the Elven-king in not a Vanya or Noldo in any case, but a Sinda... then he cites a description of Luthien as golden-haired in the A-text of the Lay of Leithian, and concludes:

'It is only in retrospect, then, after Tolkien had decided to restrict golden hair to a specific branch of the Eldar, that the problem of accounting for individual Elves with gold hair who were not members of that specific group arose. Therefore we need not concern ourselves over the apparent violation of a rule or restriction that did not exist at the time this passage was written.' The History of The Hobbit, volume I, page 407

And I agree: it is arguable that Tolkien made up his mind after The Hobbit was written, and as 'late' as 1951 even; although it's a bit difficult to date the citation CJRT raises compared to the statement in Appendix F where the Vanyar --even if not named specifically -- would at least appear to be dark-haired, being Eldar.

But that explains Thranduil having golden-hair (as the Elven-king became Thranduil of course), or explains why the reader need not consider it a violation of some rule until after the rule was invented. But it does not explain how the revision to Appendix F is compelling evidence for the suggestion of the Noldor being originally golden-haired.


All I can think of so far is that JDR is pointing to Finarfin's golden house as possibly a 'left over' of an earlier idea in which all or at least many of the Noldor were golden-haired -- maybe that's it -- but if so he could simply have pointed out Appendix F to make this same argument, and so pointing out the revision confuses me.


The linguistic stuff more concerns my 'counter' to the whole (admittedly potential) idea of the Noldor being golden-haired, but my real confusion here is simply the raising of the revision to Appendix F as a third leg of evidence -- considering that the passage, even before revision, rather speaks more generally about the Noldor being dark-haired.

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Re: History of the Hobbit

Post by Orwell on Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:06 am

Mmmm.... still going to wait until I get to that part, Elthir! Very Happy

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Re: History of the Hobbit

Post by halfwise on Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:52 am

If only Tolkien had described some elven hair as 'grey' then Elthir and Dave could have commenced arguing about the proper terminology for elven hair, and whether brindle elves exist, etc etc. A lament for lost opportunities.

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Re: History of the Hobbit

Post by Elthir on Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:31 am

Well the fuller context above is for anyone, especially for those who maybe don't have the book. Of course all are free to withhold comment in case, even if I haven't left out something pertinent or haven't injected my opinion into my description, simply not quoting the whole section might make a difference (admittedly quite possible). In any event I tried to be thorough.

halfwise wrote: 'If only Tolkien had described some elven hair as 'grey' then Elthir and Dave could have commenced arguing about the proper terminology for elven hair, and whether brindle elves exist, etc etc. A lament for lost opportunities.'

Well there's this for example Very Happy

'Two lords they had, for their numbers were very great: Elwe Singollo, which signifies Greymantle, and Olwe his brother. The hair of Olwe was long and white, and his eyes were blue; but the hair of Elwe was grey as silver, and his eyes were as stars; he was the tallest of all the Elven-folk.'

JRRT, Morgoth's Ring, The Later Quenta Silmarillion

Olwe has 'white' hair.
Elwe's was 'grey' as silver.


Last edited by Elthir on Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:06 am; edited 3 times in total
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Re: History of the Hobbit

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:55 am

Oh dear, much like the horse discussion something in my brain turns to mush trying to work all this out! (Not your fault, mine for reading this stuff at 5am!).

But what about, um, sex. Embarassed
In all the time of the elves since leaving for ME has one lot not maybe introduced the chance of different physical appearanece in another?
Its hard to imagine all those elves keeping completely seperate form one other to avoid cross hair colour contamination!

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Re: History of the Hobbit

Post by Elthir on Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:04 am

Well, we know some of the golden hair of the Vanyar was found among the Noldor through marriage Very Happy

And here's the short version of my question: how does the revision to Appendix F speak to the Noldor originally having golden hair? the revision essentially was: (draft version) the Noldor have dark hair but for the golden house of Finarfin -- changed by JRRT to (published version) -- the Eldar have dark hair except for the golden house of Finarfin.
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Re: History of the Hobbit

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:08 am

Um the only way I could see that would be if he wasnt including the Noldor as part of the Eldar! Very Happy
Or all Noldor belong to the House of Finarfin originally!

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Re: History of the Hobbit

Post by halfwise on Mon Aug 13, 2012 2:33 pm

Yep, the Venn diagrams are all nested: Fingolfin inside Noldor inside Eldar. It's just a matter of whether or not you allow Legolas to be blonde!

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Re: History of the Hobbit

Post by Orwell on Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:26 pm

Legolas, of course, was blonde. I saw him in the movies! Nod But I don't know if that throws Elthir's outrageous ideas out the window or not - as I'm not up to the prescribed bit yet... I do know more about trolls turning to stone now, having forgotten much since last I read HotH. Very Happy

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Re: History of the Hobbit

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:01 am

Do tell Orwell, for those of us deprived of this book, what knowledge you have gleaned about trolls turning to stone. Please.

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Re: History of the Hobbit

Post by Orwell on Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:10 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Do tell Orwell, for those of us deprived of this book, what knowledge you have gleaned about trolls turning to stone. Please.

Well, now you're asking me to remember things I read last night --- and that's patently unfair... (Perhaps I should have posted when it was all fresh in my mind!) Actually, it was just the idea that 'stone trolls' were usually "stone dwarfs or "stone giants", which Tolkien adapted to trolls (I think...Embarassed)


{{{Dear Self: must I go back and read it again! Shrugging These discussions require such a mental effort -- and concentration... Does Petty really expect Me - of all people - to concentrate? Shocked }}}


Last edited by Orwell on Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:13 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: History of the Hobbit

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:11 am

Perhaps Pj is unadapting them and his trolls at dawn will instead turn into huge stone giants* and chase them all the way to Rivendell!

*except for one that will turn into a stone dwarf that belches, farts then falls over.

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Re: History of the Hobbit

Post by Orwell on Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:15 am

You really should give me a little time to edit before you post, Petty. Rolling Eyes You must know by now I like a little "edit" time!

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Re: History of the Hobbit

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:16 am

But you didnt add anything? Suspect

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Re: History of the Hobbit

Post by Orwell on Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:17 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Perhaps Pj is unadapting them and his trolls at dawn will instead turn into huge stone giants* and chase them all the way to Rivendell!

*except for one that will turn into a stone dwarf that belches, farts then falls over.

Laughing I bet you he does too... I've wearing my Mrs Figg-goggles now, and I reckon I could find that amusing (amid the nausea... pale )

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Re: History of the Hobbit

Post by Orwell on Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:19 am

Pettytyrant101 wrote:But you didnt add anything? Suspect

Oh... maybe I just did the punctuation.... I sometimes edit several times. I just prefer to do it before anyone else posts - so that mine look pristinely perfected! Very Happy (And without any clues left to said editing at the bottom of my posts).

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Re: History of the Hobbit

Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:26 am

Suspect (sniff!sniff!) Did you edit in peppermint?

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Re: History of the Hobbit

Post by Orwell on Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:33 am

It was on the dishcloth... and would I lie? Embarassed

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Re: History of the Hobbit

Post by Mrs Figg on Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:27 pm

Hey! watchit Orwell! Mad
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Re: History of the Hobbit

Post by Orwell on Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:13 pm

My goodnesss.... with these new glasses Adolf looks a very nice chap! Very Happy



{{{Note to self: Hee! Hee! Hee! The best thing is, She Who Must Be Obeyed won't even know I'm being cheeky, coz she has her goggles in-built! Perfik! Laughing }}}

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Re: History of the Hobbit

Post by Ally on Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:28 pm

Too soon

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Re: History of the Hobbit

Post by halfwise on Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:45 pm

?????

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Re: History of the Hobbit

Post by Mrs Figg on Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:25 pm

I have cat senses Orwell. There is no hiding place. Mad cat
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