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Post by azriel on Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:10 pm

Sorry to detract Malick but, What struck me as I read LOTRs was why the author left out so many women ? I mean as in...No mother for Boromir & Faramir, No mother for Arwen, It felt like an all Boys Club ? I know the ladies had a description about why they were not in the lives of these offspring but why ? Why not have a family unit ? why have single dads ? Why not have a mother for Faramir to go home to & her to be proud also of Boromir ? why not write at least ONE woman in throughout this epic story ? Or am I being silly,soft & sentimental ?  Just a thought .  Wink

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Post by Radaghast on Thu Mar 20, 2014 2:26 am

Arwen's mother Celebrían was mentioned, though not in a very happy light. She was tormented by orcs and was poisoned by them.

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Thu Mar 20, 2014 2:44 am

I think the loss of his own mother had a deep impact on Tolkien's writing- Bilbo's mother gets mentions in TH but there are no women in Bilbo's life when we meet him.
Likewise Frodo also lost his parents young and lacks a female figure in his life.
Aragorn's mother dies before the story begins, as has Eomer/Eowyn's mother and Boromir/Faramir's mother and Arwen's mother.
Legolas' mother likewise is absent, we hear nothing of Gimli's, or Merry and Pippins parents either.

Al in all wherever possible it seems Tolkien's main characters dont have mothers in their lives.

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Post by halfwise on Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:35 pm

It's funny I had never realized the total and complete absence of (living) mothers.  Even the Ents don't escape....

I think Petty's explanation strikes the mark: Tolkien had strong feelings about mothers, so probably unconsciously kept them out of his little sandbox in order to keep his mind clear.  

Every woman we meet is a romantic figure (usually in an idealized/heroic sense), but not a mother figure.  I don't know if mothers would let the boys play the way they do in LotR.

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Post by David H on Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:53 pm

halfwise wrote:It's funny I had never realized the total and complete absence of (living) mothers.  Even the Ents don't escape....

I think Petty's explanation strikes the mark: Tolkien had strong feelings about mothers, so probably unconsciously kept them out of his little sandbox in order to keep his mind clear.  


Or as long as we're speculating, it could be simpler than that. He may have actually put mothers in a rough draft, and then cut them because he didn't think he caught the right tone, like some painters feel about hands.

{{{Actually, this could explain the absence of horses of colours other than white, black and grey too. I must tell Elthir! bounce }}}
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Post by Elthir on Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:04 pm

Galadriel is a living mother. She had a daughter, and 'almost' Amroth too; and Frodo just didn't get a chance to see or record her interactions with Celebrian, if they might have been important enough to the tale he was recording, that is.

And Lobelia, for another example. And Morwen. And Idril in The Fall of Gondolin. And Melian, and maybe more...
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Post by Bluebottle on Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:47 pm

I always felt that the all male nature of the fellowship and so on had a lot to do with Tolkiens experience in the First World War. Where groups of men would go of to war together. And there were no women fighting in the trenches. War in 1914, which is far from medieval times, was still a male endevour.

And he still feels comfertable breaking that mold with Éowyn.

I never had much understanding for that kind of criticism.

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Post by bungobaggins on Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:16 am

This is a question regarding the FOTR movie.

I saw this pop up in a thread on reddit today. Someone claimed that in the theatrical release of FOTR, Gandalf said, "Run, you fools," before he fell in Moria. I clearly remember Gandalf saying "Fly, you fools." I saw the movie twice in theaters, but that was a long time ago. Shrugging

The following is taken from the FOTR IMDB trivia page.


What does Gandalf say to the Fellowship as he hangs onto the ledge?

He says, "Fly, you fools!" Turning on the closed captions or subtitles reveals the line, which is also in the book. In older English, "fly" is an imperative version (meaning, when you're ordering someone to do something) of the word "flee". During the original theatrical release, Gandalf's line was modernized to "Run, you fools!" However, when the DVD was released, the line was changed to more faithfully reflect the novel.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120737/faq

I really don't think this is true. Anyone here with a better memory than mine, who can recall a single line of dialogue from a movie that was released nearly 13 years ago?

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Post by Eldorion on Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:29 am

I didn't see FOTR in theatres cause I was only seven at the time so I can't testify as to that, but it sounds like BS to me.  In any event, it's not a rumor I have ever heard before in all my years of reading and discussing the LOTR movies.  Granted, that's not conclusive, but a change to such an iconic line seems like the sort of thing that would have sparked fan outrage at the time the movie came out.  There are still plenty of Tolkien forums around today that were active in December 2001 too, so a sufficiently interested person with enough time on their hands could poke around in old archives and look for references.  (Alas, I do not meet either of those criteria at the moment.)
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Post by Tinuviel on Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:33 am

That doesn't sound too strange to me... well you'll probably remember this better than I do, but my sister swore that the gift giving was in the theatrical addition, and when it came out on dvd was disappointed when it wasn't there. I barely remember the film because half of it was watched from behind my dad's shoulder  Laughing. But was that a thing?

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Post by bungobaggins on Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:38 am

The only portion of the gift giving scene that was in the FOTR theatrical was the phial. At least, I think. My brother ended up with my LOTR theatrical DVD's so I can't check.

I'm starting to think that those claims of "run you fools," are a bunch of bull, as well.

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Post by bungobaggins on Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:42 am

What Gandalf really said in the FOTR TE:

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Post by malickfan on Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:01 pm

Actually I'm pretty sure IMDB is correct, if my memory is serving me right Jackson mentions this on the EE commentary, I think they changed it only for the North America theatrical release, changing it back on international home video.

I may be wrong, I first watched Fellowship Xmas 2002 (can still remember watching it four or five times in the space of three days-I was 11) so i never saw it in the cinema, and it's been a good two or three years since I watched the films.

I always liked the theory it could also be Tolkien poking fun at his own plot hole Fly you fools-'Bugger, it's a bit late to take the eagles now'

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Post by bungobaggins on Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:15 pm

I popped in my EE DVD last night and listened to the commentary during that scene. It wasn't mentioned. Shrugging

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Post by halfwise on Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:20 pm

His mustache clearly pops up when he utters the line. "Fly" is aspirated, "Run" is not. And I would have remembered being crabbit if he said "Run" instead of "Fly". They may have toyed with the idea of changing it for the American market then rejected it.

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Post by malickfan on Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:29 pm

bungobaggins wrote:I popped in my EE DVD last night and listened to the commentary during that scene. It wasn't mentioned. Shrugging

Hmm. I have no idea where I got that from, maybe they just inserted a totally different take for some territories.

My memory of the Films is pretty sketchy.

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Post by bungobaggins on Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:54 pm

The strongest memory I have from seeing FOTR in theaters is when the Nazgul enter the Prancing Pony. Everything else is just a blur.

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Post by malickfan on Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:09 pm

My strongest memory of the LOTR films was (no tutting Petty) being blown away and staring open mouthed at the TV for several hours. FOTR is the only film in the series I can enjoy entirely on its own terms rather than an adaptation.

(I was 11 and I've wised up/grown more impatient/sarcastic since then, but I can never be truly crabbit towards Jackson-he basically introduced me to LOTR and spawned my love of cinema)

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:21 pm

I can remember every single second of all three films, every last one, in minute torturous detail from all those edits. Eru have mercy on my soul, if He can find it.  Mad

(and in a testament to how long ago FotR was I made my first purist edit with two VCR's hooked together)

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Post by malickfan on Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:29 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I can remember every single second of all three films, every last one, in minute torturous detail from all those edits. Eru have mercy on my soul, if He can find it.  Mad

(and in a testament to how long ago FotR was I made my first purist edit with two VCR's hooked together)


I think I wore my VHS out in the end (I actually had the EE's on tape at one point), but that was actually due to enjoyment, well you are dedicated at least!

Sofa I'm embarrassed to say I haven't actually watched your edits yet Petty)

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:32 pm

Embarrassed? You should be publicly flogged in the Forumshire Town Square!  Twisted Evil 

So what you waiting on? A whole new version of the film to watch.
If they bunged them in a box with a $80 price tag on it you'd have bought it by now!

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Post by Eldorion on Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:23 pm

malickfan wrote:I can never be truly crabbit towards Jackson-he basically introduced me to LOTR and spawned my love of cinema

Same for me. :nod:There were movies I liked before I saw LOTR, of course, but it was watching the trilogy and especially the EE documentaries that got me interested in the craft and process of moviemaking and made me think more deeply about cinema.  Obviously as I've watched more films from various genres and periods my understanding has deepened but LOTR was the jumping-off point for me.
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Post by Tinuviel on Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:04 am

Same here. I wanted to get into film making (and still do) because of the appendices. It's spread now though from wanting to be an actress to anything really that gets to be part of the creation process of the film. That and any creation process for any form of media. So I want to tell stories the way PJ got to, in the end.

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Post by halfwise on Sat Jul 26, 2014 6:05 pm

So there's this quote by Gandalf about Sauron sticking in my head, but I can't figure out which scene from the books it's from. Been flipping through all the likely ones, can't find it. Driving me crazy:

"He weighs everything to a nicety in the scales of his malice."

Where's that from?

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Post by bungobaggins on Sat Jul 26, 2014 6:26 pm

It's during the Council of Elrond, right before Bilbo offers to take the Ring.

'Despair, or folly?' said Gandalf. 'It is not despair, for despair is only for those who see the end beyond all doubt. We do not. It is wisdom to recognize necessity, when all other courses have been weighed, though as folly it may appear to those who cling to false hope. Well, let folly be our cloak, a veil before the eyes of the Enemy! For he is very wise, and weighs all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice. But the only measure that he knows is desire, desire for power; and so he judges all hearts. Into his heart the thought will not enter that any will refuse it, that having the Ring we may seek to destroy it. If we seek this, we shall put him out of reckoning.'

I have the Ballantine/Del Rey paperback, pp. 322-323.


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