Homosexuality and LotR

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Post by springstar on Sat May 14, 2011 11:55 pm

I agree that when bonds and friendship exist between men you are liable to be under intense scrutiny especially be women. Nowadays in my country very few men see teaching as a desirable profession. Suspect

The rest is all about Gimli and Legolas:

Gimli and Legolas were War Veterans from the War of the Ring, gathering together often at Gondor, Rohan, Osgiliath, Rivendell, Mirkwood,Glittering Caves, Fangorn Forest with the 'Fellowship' and those who fought alongside them. It was at these gathering that they would recall stories of bygone days, including Gloin's tales of Bilbo Baggins, awards for bravery,feasting, singing,(like soldiers from WW1 and WW2). It was at these gatherings that old rivalries and long held issues were forgiven and put right. pirat

Legolas and his father may have had several discussions about the Undying Lands and Legolas right as heir. Later on, a few long years after the War of the Ring has ended we read about the choice that Legolas has made, perhaps Thranduil may have offered Gimli his place to sail to the Undying Lands. Which probably occurred not long after the passing away of many of their friends and war veterans Merry and Pippin, Aragorn, Eomer, Gimli's dad Gloin. king

There was an ongoing rivalry between the elves and the dwarf, and this was not going to hinder a friendship in the making between the offspring of both. Both sons were handed down a genealogical and historical story and tale about the elves and dwarves not all good and not all bad. Did this make a difference to them in the beginning yes! As time progressed friendship began to flower and then trust. flower

I think Gimli became Legolas's shadow so to speak(or vice versa) where you could not separate the two. Very tight friendship I would say.

The Glittering Caves eventually became the home of Gimli and a few other dwarfs.

The friendship formed between Frodo and Sam was a special one but it was Rose who became Sam's true friend. It wasn't until after her death that Sam longed to see Frodo again and followed Frodo to the Undying Lands. Some former friendships just do not die they just lie dormant. Sleep


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Post by odo banks on Sun May 15, 2011 3:43 am

Well said Springstar. Why Mr Tyrant even came up with this thread makes me wonder why he was even thinking such things. No

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Sun May 15, 2011 11:19 am

I have an enquiring mind!
And despite Springstars lyrical defence of best mates it doens't wash- it still does not explain Gimli taking ship- there are lots of friendships in the history of ME between mortal and elf at least as close as Legolas and Gimli and none of them got to go out of friendship so why does Gimli? Only Tolkiens love stories tend to have such endings to them.

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Post by odo banks on Sun May 15, 2011 11:06 pm

So you are saying the only way for mortals to get to Valinor is by being the lover of an elf, Mr Tyrant? And it might seem you are just indulging in some critical thinkinghere, but you're not. I remember a true story (I think it was in a psychology book but can't quite remember) where it was believed by the people of a village that whenever storks in a lake nearby bred in high numbers that the females of the village also experienced an increase in their likelihood of conception. This was later proven to not be true to the known facts when examined scrupulously. Surely this is an example of the quality of scientific thought you have exhibited in your theory. Here to help! Very Happy

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon May 16, 2011 12:38 am

"So you are saying the only way for mortals to get to Valinor is by being the lover of an elf, Mr Tyrant?"- Odo

Don't remember ever saying that- you must be reading between the lines again Odo!

"it was believed by the people of a village that whenever storks in a lake nearby bred in high numbers that the females of the village also experienced an increase in their likelihood of conception. This was later proven to not be true to the known facts when examined scrupulously. Surely this is an example of the quality of scientific thought you have exhibited in your theory. Here to help!"-Odo

Not very helpful no as your example is of two unrelated events seen to have a coincidental connection. The stories of mortals and the Undying Lands are connected by their author. Tolkien has themes, has consistencies within his own imagined world. Those rules clearly show that mortlas only get to go to Valinor in exceptional circumstances or through the strength of love. And I am also drawing attention to the fact many other mortal/immortals have had friendships as close as Gimli/Legolas without being granted passage to stay together in the Undying Lands. You cannot take the story of Gimli/Legolas in isolation as you can the storks, they are connected to the conception (the author) so conclusion can, tentavively, be drawn. And certainly questions can be asked (its partly why we are all here afterall).
If you are going to shoot me down Odo I expect you to do so with a greater quality of scientific thought than you have exhibted in your counter-argument. Here to help!

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Post by odo banks on Mon May 16, 2011 1:53 am

Oh Mr Tyrant, you're so busy trying to win an argument, you've missed my point completely. I was not suggesting the stork story was a direct example of what Tolkien was doing, I was using it as an example of the type of untidy thinking people use to prove a point that they hold against all principles of clear thinking. Tolkien patently did not want people to think Gimli and Legolas' friendship was homosexual. Springstar made his (her?) point quite acccurately, I think. Tolkien would have been amazed to hear your interpretation - just as he was amazed to hear about young Americans thinking he advocated the use of drugs back in the sixties. I think I've worked it out, Mr Tyrant. You are offering your personal relgio-interpretative approach, which of course contrasts markedly from from my scientific logical approach. When I mention religio-interpretative aprroach, I refer to a certain "mindset" I find in folk who are a little hysterical and magical in their thinking; and, of course, I mean what I say in the nicest possible way. Here to help! Very Happy

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Post by Freedom76 on Mon May 16, 2011 4:23 am

I'm certainly not surprised by this! Just look at all that long, blonde hair on Mr. Pretty-boy Elf! He must spend at least two hours every day washing and combing it. Shocked Laughing Laughing
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Post by odo banks on Mon May 16, 2011 5:16 am

Elvish custom, Mr Freedom, don't read too much into it! No

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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon May 16, 2011 11:28 am

"Tolkien patently did not want people to think Gimli and Legolas' friendship was homosexual."-Odo

I can find no evidence to support or deny such a view in his writings, as far as I know he never mentioned the subject directly, so I believe your position that he 'patently' did not want people to think it is false is an assumption on your part. We don't know and only have his writings to go on.
And if it is fair, and I can think of no objections at the time, to debate the nature of Bombadil and Goldberry by referring to other similar examples, or extrapolating on in world rules, then I do not see the objection to the same methodology being applied to the subject of Gimli's gift of going with Legolas.
And in considering Gimli's unusual granting of passage it seems to me perfectly logical to consider the nature of his releationship with Legolas and to speculate on whether there was something about it that was different, or which sets it apart, from similar releationships in the past which have not resulted in a similar favour granted.

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Post by springstar on Mon May 16, 2011 12:20 pm

In the book The Two Towers, before Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli are about to enter Fangorn forest Legolas says 'I could have been happy here, if I had come in days of peace'. To which Gimli replies 'I dare say you could,' snorted Gimli. 'You are a Wood-elf, anyway, though Elves of any kind are strange folk. Yet you comfort me.' 'Where you go, I will go.' Gimli was a man of his word.

Elves had nothing to do with dwarves, because of a long drawn out dispute going back generations, that was until Legolas showed up and befriended the fellowship. Becoming almost like a right hand man to Aragorn.

Although Gimli went to the Undying Lands he was not immortal.

......and by the way I am female! Very Happy
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Post by Pettytyrant101 on Mon May 16, 2011 8:36 pm

"Elves had nothing to do with dwarves, because of a long drawn out dispute going back generations, that was until Legolas showed up and befriended the fellowship. Becoming almost like a right hand man to Aragorn."- Springstar

You've been watching films again Springstar rather than reading books! The only place Legolas is Aragorns righthand man is in PJ's abomination. In the books Aragorn 'runs' with the Dunedain and Elronds sons, he seems to have no prior connection to Legolas before meeting him at the Council.
You statement about Elves and Dwarves is not strictly true either, Gloin tells Frodo before the council when waxing lyrical about Dale that relations with the elves of Mirkwood are now pretty good. Gimli seems to have grown up mainly under the Mountain, in a dwarf colony who trade with men and elves, he is probaly quite cosmopolitian compared to dwarf generations before him, more like the Dwarves of Moria at the time of Hollin were.

There is a big difference between someone saying "Where you go I go" and the Gods rearranging the rules to accomodate it, why would they is the question? Which still brings the whole thing back to what did Gimli get granted passage for? Whats special about his releationship with Legolas that they get an exception granted to no others in all ME history?

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Post by odo banks on Mon May 16, 2011 10:58 pm

Mr Tyrant said: "I can find no evidence to support or deny such a view in his writings, as far as I know he never mentioned the subject directly, so I believe your position that he 'patently' did not want people to think it is false is an assumption on your part."

Maybe I mis-chose my words, Mr Tyrant. What I meant is, I don't believe Tolkien even considered the idea they were homosexual while writing. Perhaps, who knows, he may have had some ardent (and misguided) reader suggest the possibilitly at some stage, but I've no doubt the idea would have surprised him and caused him to do this --- Rolling Eyes . As to "finding no evidence", quite right, for there is none to find. Read all the biographies and books about his writings. If you come away from them thinking he ever considered any of his characters were "gay" then you may have been drinking too much buckie! I mean it nicely, though. Here to help. Very Happy

Also, I find it hard to believe that the Hierarchy in Valinor would let an elf bring his dwarvish lover to the Blessed Realm. That wouldn't be respectable. Shocked

Springstar said: "......and by the way I am female!"

And this explains exactly why you are being so reasonable and sensible about things, Springstar - not like a certain (male) Scotsgobbit I know, whom I'm far too polite to mention by name. cyclops

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Post by Tinuviel on Mon May 16, 2011 11:14 pm

HOORAY!!!!!!!!!! Another girl!!!!!!! cheers queen

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Post by odo banks on Mon May 16, 2011 11:23 pm

The times the are a'changin'... but for the better? Who can say? Shocked

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Post by Kafria on Mon May 16, 2011 11:40 pm

odo banks wrote:The times the are a'changin'... but for the better? Who can say? Shocked

The girls! The more there are of us the better things get Laughing

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Post by Biffo Banks on Mon May 16, 2011 11:47 pm

mor ooy kunddee ya meen Question
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Post by Freedom76 on Tue May 17, 2011 12:39 am

odo banks wrote:The times the are a'changin'... but for the better? Who can say? Shocked

I've found changing times to most always be for the worst. I can't understand what folks want to do by abandoning the respectability of the good old days. Mad
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Post by odo banks on Tue May 17, 2011 12:47 am

Yes, too true. At last, a respectable forumer! For you, my friend, this --- flower as a token of my highest regard. Very Happy

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Post by Freedom76 on Tue May 17, 2011 12:55 am

I shall treasure this! Very Happy And to you, Odo Banks, as a respectabilian extraordinaire among Forumhobbits, I give the Elephant of Approval. elephant
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Post by odo banks on Tue May 17, 2011 1:33 am

Ha! And an elephant rarely forgets! Thank you, sir.

(((I'm thinking of building a Rectangular Table, Mr Freedom, with me at the head, and my Followers along the sides, and Kafria* taking charge of the catering. Would you like to be a Knight of the Rectangular Table, Mr Freedom? Imagine the good work you might do under my tutelage! Exciting what?)))



(((((* How does this title sound: "Queen Under the Mountain, Empress of the Caterers, and Lady Beneath the Table?)))))

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Post by Freedom76 on Tue May 17, 2011 3:05 am

Yes, I think this Order of the Rectangular Table shall be necessary to halt the creeping tide of feminism, liberalism, and disrespectabilism that is engulfing Forumshire! Mad (((I say, a rectangle ... should it be a long rectangle ... seems quite phallic, does it not? Fitting Embarassed )))
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Post by odo banks on Tue May 17, 2011 3:13 am

Why the embarrassment? A Man's Order needs a Man's Symbol. Note also the singular cyclops as well. Is it not consistent with the Rectangular symbol - but only for those who have at least one eye to see! But I see your point, Mr Freedom, so we must keep it secret, keep it safe, for Lesser Minds might misunderstand it's significance and begin to deride it! (I can only shudder at what those type will think of our Secret Handshake! Shocked )

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Post by Baingil on Tue May 17, 2011 3:14 am

*coughs*
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Post by odo banks on Tue May 17, 2011 3:16 am

Well, that teaches you for sticking your nose into Secret Men's Business, Baingil! Mad

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Post by Baingil on Tue May 17, 2011 3:18 am

No, I'm fine, just listening. Go ahead with your so-very-interesting discussion. Very Happy
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